“I’m spiritual, not religious”

“I’m spiritual, not religious”

Spiritual no Religious 2I wish I had a back massage for every time I’ve heard this line. What gets me most is the presupposition it stems from, that “spiritual” is the assumed equivalent of “good” and “religious” is the assumed equivalent of “evil.” Who made up this language game?

Honestly, who decided that “spiritual” was a term that would be used to contradict religion and as evidence of personal enlightenment without further ado? And does anyone using the phrase ever stop to think what they actually mean by it? I think what is usually meant is that religion is man-made tradition, whereas spiritual is a phenomenon that happens on a personal level, free from all “man-madeness” and tradition, and thus… true?

My experience has been exactly the opposite. I spent the first 20 years of my journey in Christianity believing that I was spiritual and not religious, and I have come to realize I had been imposing a false dichotomy on my faith. The main reason I pitted spirituality against religion was because of a profound ignorance of historic Christianity. I say “profound” because I spent nearly 10 of those 20 years in formal training in Biblical and theological studies. Somehow, in that time period, I was never made aware of the real story of Christianity. That’s like studying capitalism and never running across Adam Smith. I just assumed that my little universe of self-taught Evangelicalism was true and anything falling outside of its parameters was just religious, i.e., cold, calculated ritual void of any emotional or heartfelt concern for a relationship with God. But what I encountered with the historic Church was a religion that was far more advanced spiritually than I ever dreamed of being as a Christian solo artist.

I don’t like the broad and confused stroke with which this phrase paints religion. Religion need not have anything to do with cold, calculated ritual. Indeed, it can become that, but spirituality can just as easily morph into flighty emotionalism with no core. If one is taking Scripture as their guide, religion can either be pure or false. “Pure religion,” writes St. James, is to “visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world (James 1:27).” And tradition can either be the tradition of men or Apostolic Tradition. The New Testament is replete with admonition to cling to the Apostolic Tradition.

I have found the phrase, “I am spiritual, not religious,” and its redheaded stepchild, “I follow Jesus, not tradition,” to be manifestations of spiritual pride, not spiritual enlightenment. These phrases are almost always accompanied by a corresponding lifestyle where the rules are made up as you go, and all things are ultimately justifiable in the light of “personal revelation.” It is a world of Christianity where there is no human authority, save oneself, where millions of individual “popes” abound, but the Church is nonexistent; it’s essentially a personal religious potpourri not unlike New Age adherence, with slightly different language.

To claim to be spiritual and not religious is like claiming to have taken a swim without getting wet. Anyone who embarks on anything spiritual will either receive the religious tradition from which it comes or create their own religious tradition in the attempt to understand and practice it. The next time you hear the phrase, or, God forbid, say the phrase, remember that it has no meaning whatsoever. It is perhaps one of the emptiest phrases ever developed in the English language.

789 thoughts on ““I’m spiritual, not religious”

  1. I just left a great response to this. It would’ve blown your mind…then I had to reset my WordPress password and somehow it was lost. I don’t have the energy to re-type it. Ah, well.

  2. Great article. How would you phrase a response to praise people for the tiny step they have taken away from secularism and move them toward a more complete understanding of spirituality?

  3. Actually your page template is cool. I’m not hatin’.

    I did enjoy the article…I think there is room for some semantic deconstruction here; i.e. meaning and language as it relates to ones unique worldview and perspective. I don’t think all people who would say that phrase would mean the same thing by it…but they would all be TRYING to say something. I’d be interested in what is behind the phrase for them…as you explored in your second paragraph. Based on your presupposition on their meaning I agree with your reaction. Cool to hear about your personal experiences with “religion.”

    • Thanks, Josiah. Good points. The specific interpretation I chose to pick on was the one I have found to be most prominent in the cases I’ve heard it, but you’re right, there are plenty of other ways people can mean it. In the final analysis, I don’t think its as much a misunderstanding of “spirituality” as it is of “religion.” Religion seems to have become universally accepted as dead ritual. Sad.

    • I agree with M. Josiah! And, I totally get what you are saying Eric! If I would have read this a few months ago, I would have been in complete agreement with you! However, I’ve sort have gone through a spiritual journey over the past few months and, although I’ve never actually uttered this phrase (and probably never will), I sort of understand where people might be coming from when they say it. I’m kind of at a crossroads between having a sense that this is something bigger than myself out there, but I’m not sure that feel comfortable subscribing to any of the religions that I know about. So, I guess that’s what that phrase means for me! And… that last sentence… Ouch!! lol Great post though! 🙂

  4. What if though, you define spirituality as a love of nature, humanity, and the human spirit, and you show that spirituality by being kind to others, recycling, and interacting with people on a daily basis in order to make the life of anothe person easier? That’s not religion, that’s just being kind.

  5. Thoughtful discussion on the meaning we lend words. I am with you, although I will admit to having used this phrase in the past. Nowadays, the line seems blurred. I do find that the belief in something – be it science, god, others, or your cat – is as helpful as can be in living life with a sense of purpose.

  6. You have a beautiful way with words. I love reading things that “pull back the veil” on ideas that permeate our culture. I have always felt that this phrase has become a prideful way to separate one’s self from the negative thoughts that seem to go hand in hand with religion while still attempting to say that they are somehow “deep”. Great post!

  7. Interesting viewpoint. I’m not on board with religion nor with what the term “spirituality” seems to have devolved into. Mindfulness, perhaps? If religion an attempt to define the concept of the Divine, I find it too confining – in any denomination. My perception is that all disciplines – religions, sciences, philosophies, mathematics – are an attempt to define the concept of the Divine. In that sense, it’s my opinion that it is quite possible to have a unique, logical outlook without strictly adhering to any one discipline or modality.

    Thank you for sharing your view!

    • I have a Personal philosophy, my way, a Natural way that I see that all things work. A paradigm if you will, that allows my person to adjust to new knowledge easily. I loved this comment because, well, it is awesome and I agree 100%. I am not on board with the “religious” title because I do not follow an institution or a tradition or have a share history or experience, even if I do accept the Qur’an nothing else. Additionally, I cannot claim to be spiritual because the context of the word is a bit too open. One is confined to something, the other tells you nothing of the person.

      People ask me daily “How can you believe in God and not have a religion?”….. I ask them “How could you believe in a religion and claim to believe in God?”

      There seems to be a great amount of confusion. If I wanted to worship a man, or man’s rules, or an institution then I would wrap myself up in a religion. Since I personally chose not to do that, and I chose to believe in God, I also accept that I have to do so for myself and by myself.

      Who else could take the burden of my belief? LOL

    • I suspect, Teddy, that your experience may be similar to mine. To me, it sounds like you KNOW God, rendering mere belief superfluous.
      Thank you! All the best, M

    • I agree!
      The word ‘God’ is not GOD!
      Each of has to experience spirituality/ God in our own way!
      A perfect description of the taste of a mango is no substitute to actually eating and tasting one, as I just did – a mango from my garden!

    • I agree with you, Margarita. It is an interesting viewpoint, but I still adhere to my being “spiritual” rather than religious. “Spiritual”, to me, is something that comes from within. It’s an attitude, a philosophy. It does not necessarily have to do with religion.

    • Yes, I agree that “Spiritual” is an expression of an internal state and it has no dogma such as religions do. Still, I’m not entirely sure that its current usage, which smacks to me a little of a pop culture thing rather than what you describe, feels entirely accurate to me. It feels a little overused, like “whatever!” I’m more comfortable using the term in a discussion where we can agree on what that means before we proceed. I think we’re on the same page in this case, and I’m grateful for our comment. It’s good to connect! All the best, M

  8. If a person has a relationship with the divine that is unmediated by any man-made rules or dogma, I would say that person really is spiritual but not religious. Nothing wrong with that.

    • Merriam-Webster definition. Religion
      4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
      Just because you don’t hold to the confinements of what one person says about God or their beliefs, doesn’t mean you aren’t religious. How you follow your belief is your “religion.” That doesn’t make you less spiritual though. His point is that we have perverted the meaning of the word religion. Religion isn’t limited to an organization. It isn’t the negative word that everyone has made it out to be. 🙂

    • That definition agrees with my point. Religion is culturally based and requires human thought and invention to exist. It’s semantics whether you argue in support or against his opinion. And, at the cost of far too many zealots in this world, religion needs redefined if you don’t won’t to include bad connotations with good.

    • Religion is specified to an individual. Everyone who doesn’t affiliate with an organized form of religion, isn’t effected by zealots in the organized religion. Even in that instance, the zealots all have their own form of religion if their beliefs lead them to believe and act differently than a lot of others in that specific belief. It’s using the term incorrectly to broadly cover anyone that has similar beliefs that includes zealots with people in organized religion.

    • Typically I will use the phrase “organized religion”, to define a man-made set of beliefs and requirements to which a follower must adhere (and I believe this is what many people mean when they use the word “religion”). I am happy to say that I am spiritual, and do not follow any organized religion.

    • Spirituality defines your individual religion. The term organized religion refers to an organization and not just a belief. In that sense, I can agree with you. You can be spiritual and not follow an organized religion, but a the definition of religion is what you personally believe, regardless of whether you affiliate yourself with what others believe.

    • That’s why one must ask oneself”am I a spiritual being in Human form or a human being in Spiritual form?”…Vedantic philosophy,if one understands well, takes you to the real answer for that. “I”…it is certainly not S.Rajah Iyar or Lisa Shaw!

  9. I think of religion as the vehicle you use to drive your spirituality around so it can accomplish some good. I can feel “spiritual” reading the scriptures; but as James suggests, “religion” means actually putting principles into practice. In my experience, those who use this as an excuse for inaction have either been burned by a religious rep—which is a different issue—or just don’t want the effort/inconvenience that religion demands.

  10. Thank you for this article. You have finally expressed exactly what I try to reason when I hear that phrase. It annoys me to no end when people tell me`they are “spiritual not religious“. Invariably there is an air of condescension that goes with it too.

    Unfortunately we live in world that is riddled with too much moral relativism. Spirituality has a different definitition for different people and everything under the sun becomes justified according to one`s “spiritually enlightened“ whims and fancies.

    “Anyone who embarks on anything spiritual will either receive the religious tradition from which it comes, or create their own religious tradition in the attempt to understand and practice it.“- perfect line.

    I`m bookmarking this page.

  11. I believe the “negative” term religion has been cut and diced to the point where it is unrecognizable now as just, religion. I associate the negative term religion to coincide with the Word that speaks against the “religion of men”. Two completely different things…

  12. I think you have a point about the false dichotomy, which you state fairly well in your final paragraph (“Anyone who embarks on anything spiritual will either receive the religious tradition from which it comes, or create their own religious tradition”). But to some extent, that point is unfalsifiable: *any* individual’s idiosyncratic spiritual practice would become, by your definition, a “religious tradition”, no matter how erratic or unshared, even though consistency and communion are generally considered essential to any religious tradition. So while there are certainly plenty of cases where a self-proclaimed “spiritual but not religious” person is actually ignoring the religious elements to which he adheres, I don’t think you can fairly assert it is true in every case.

    I also think your argument is based upon a straw man — the “spiritual = good / religion = bad” interpretation you start with. I have no doubt this is what some people think, but certainly not all. I believe there are a large number of people for whom being spiritual means they sense the majesty and mystery of the universe to which they belong, and being religious means they accept as largely infallible some human-run organization’s interpretation of this majesty and mystery, and they say they are “spiritual but not religious” because the former does not always imply the latter. I don’t see how even a rock-solid religious believer can see that view as logically impossible. After all, if there are, say, 100 different religions in the world, and you believe in one of them (say, Christianity), then the only difference between you and a “spiritual but not religious” person is that you think that 99 of them don’t quite explain the majesty and mystery right, and the s.b.n.r. person thinks that 100 of them don’t.

    • Bill, is individual spirituality free from being “human-run,” and is it not a particular human’s “interpretation of this majesty and mystery”? Individual spirituality differs in no way from organized religion in these respects, just less people involved. 🙂

    • If you’re suggesting that numbers don’t make a difference, then I guess you believe that polygamy differs in no way from monogamy. 🙂

      There is nothing wrong with the argument that any form of spirituality, even just one person’s idiosyncratic sense and practice, could be called a “religion”. Surely that is one definition of “religion”. But it is disingenuous to assert that it is the *only* definition, or that it is the definition that people always have in mind when they say, “I’m spiritual, but I’m not religious.”

    • I think you summed it up perfectly. I feel this is why most people pronounce themselves spiritual but not religious. A lack of faith in organized religion but not in the existence of a deity. I think the dissatisfaction with religion but the need to convey their belief in a higher power is what drives people to use this expression.

  13. I understand your point. My experience with religion in America is that it’s about making sure you go to church everyweek not about living in the likeness of Christ. That’s why I no longer go to church I still talk with God daily. I still fellowship with other Christians but I just don’t feel I have to validate my spiritualism by making sure everyone sees me at church. If I practice what Jesus preaches people will know I’m a Christian without having to broadcast it or tebow in the hallway.

    • Going to church isn’t about validating spiritualism, it’s about being part of the community that is the body of Christ. It’s about supporting others and receiving support from others. It’s about serving Christ by serving others with others. Yes it is also about accountability. Faith as Christ taught by word and deed is personal but not private. Certainly faith and faithfullness occur outside the walls and halls of the Church or a church. Church, communities of faith should encourage and impower ministry of the individual to offer in their lives away from the community. Church, the body is not a manmade institution. It was created and sustained by God in which God offers us the opportunity and priviledge to be a part of and work in and through.

    • You don’t have to go to church to be part of the community. Any time a group of believers gather is fellowship and that is what the bible states, to fellowship with other believers. Church is a man made institution to take attendance not to keep accountability. It so individuals can get their gold star for being religious and then live the rest of the week how they choose. I get far more accountability, support, and guidance from friends and family than from an individual preaching their interpretation of the bible.

      Jesus has more patience, kindness, love, and forgiveness than I was ever shown at a church. I only began to realize this when I made my relationship private. I believe there is something about taking the plank out of your own eye before trying to take the dust out of someone else’s.

    • Your reply gives food for thought. The Church, ecclesia, aka the Church is God’s creation if one is to believe Acts and the letters of Paul and other new testament writings. Second, the Church, as an institution rather than the body, with instituional goals and methods, and failures certainly could be considered a human creation or best said, alteration to the original Body of Christ. It is changing from that Body to the Institution where much if not all the trouble begins. Yes many of these institutions do have hypocracy and often reject in action the Word they say they want preached. In doing so they have stopped being the Body of Christ, and started becoming an institution. But, there is accountability if again you are to believe Paul, and Jesus, who sent the Holy Spirit, who created and sustained the Church as the Body of Christ. Such accountability should be offered through grace and humility not righteous judgement.

      Some preachers interpret and preach as their’s is the final if not correct interpretation. I do not do that. I study, reflect on other’s thoughts, pray and then offer my humble understanding. I always invite persons to consider what I preach and use that as a part of their own understanding as they work to strengthen their personal faith. I always welcome questions or disagreements for it is in those discussions where we all learn.

      If you are living out faith in a group of believers, aka a fellowship, then you are part of the Body and Church. You also are not private in your relationship.

    • Exactly, well put. I also beleive the scriptures validates your comments. The Sermon on The Mount, Mathew 6 “Be careful not to do your acts of righteousness before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven…” …” But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen…” I like you realized that when I took my relationship private that my relationship became reacher and my understanding of the love of God increased. In my home we gather together each evening to read the scriptures together; discuss with our children. I tell my children that their relationship with God to a personal relationship and they need to cultivate it.

    • Well said…but my additional thoughts on this are that many weekly church attendees love to talk the talk. But do not always walk the walk. It is almost as if they think that the things they do and say will be alright with God this coming Sunday, so they can do or say whatever. They make the non-church attendees feel like they are less of a person and preach their Christian views like they know more. I am a Christian, I have attended many of churches in the past, and I also practice what Jesus preaches. I do not attend and I do know God. Thanks for your reply.

    • I agree that church can feel like an empty formality sometimes. I heard someone once describe that church is the string that holds loose pearls together. We are each a pearl that has the capacity and duty to be doing good everyday everywhere, but church helps to unify and focus that capacity. It enables people to share their good works and be inspired to do more by others who are also doing them. 99% of our “christianity” should be happening Monday through Saturday and then Sunday we ought to come together to celebrate the fruits of that work and find encouragement to take it into the next week.

    • The Apostle Paul says in the book of Hebrews chapter 10 that we,…draw near with a true heart, …hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering,….provoke unto love and to good works, and…..not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together… All that to say that if we, who claim to be Christians, are indeed obligated to first read the bible, second, pray to God for his guidance in it’s instruction to us, and thirdly, follow the practices of those that preceded us in the New Testament of this faith. Ask God for his Holy Spirits guidance in leading us to a group of believers (church), and then to ask what part, or gift God wants you to demonstrate to the unbelieving masses of unsaved humanity. Or, we could go on and make up our own little spiritual cocoon to make us “feel” better.

  14. I totally agree. Following Jesus is not a religion, it’s a spiritual relationship and not man made rules. Truely the Bible is God breathed and He alone is the author that the human beings were just the vessel used. Thank you for sharing this truth about Jesus.

  15. I appreciate your view, but I don’t share it. I think man as a whole has managed to put a lot of dogma and rules into something that is divine. Even Jesus struggled with religion while on earth. I hear the danger in what I’m saying–each of us feeling that God alone provides us with our moral compass and only we can hear what’s meant for us. Lots of room there for misinterpretation and “crazies”. But religion is full of that also . . .

  16. I’m not even sure what spiritual means outside of a religious context. I get the whole one with the universe thing but it seems to have veered into the realm of supernaturalism. I’m taking about the whole third eye, astral projection, spirit guide type of stuff. I have no idea what to even make of it anymore.

  17. I see this as positive, since it says quite loudly that we’re now recognising that we’re spiritual beings without the need of a priest to drum it into us and tell us what we must or must not do. We all can read the words of prophets, gurus, saints, and supposedly God. We all can commune in whichever way best suits us. Perhaps the time has come to wave goodbye to many of the outdated religious institutions.

  18. Whilst you bring up good points. I must disagree with you. And I would just like to add here that the word ‘religion’ stems from the latin word ‘relihios’ meaning ‘to control’, whereas the word ‘spiritual’ comes from the latin word ‘spirituoso’ meaning ‘freedom’.

    • That definition of religion is hard to square with St. James’ definition, as noted in the article. Unless one believes that helping widows and orphans is controlling them.

    • Lol! But can’t helping someone lead to being controlling of them? Like your mother directing you to wash the dishes, or clean your face or brush your teeth or telling you when to come home? (as a child and young adult of course) and you feel like you are being controlled but really she’s just ultimately trying to help you. And when you help others, most times you take their burdens on to yourself, and slip into the extremity of controlling them through and with your advice.

      I love your post and relate, because as a college student you meet many different people and everyone has got something interesting about them. I heard a girl & a guy (they were friends–coincidence?) say that phrase to me, and i quietly thought, now what the hell does that mean? and we all sat down and discussed it. Enlightening discussion btw; but what they said was that the things that they experienced in church organizations and atmospheres are what pushed them away from “religion”. They don’t believe in religion. Its all hoopla and a way for religious leaders to make money and get ahead. Everyone in the church is judgmental, always with something to say, and it doesn’t really seem like the true atmosphere to praise God, and be one with God, and fellowship amongst people who also believe in God and Christ, when the actions amongst them are not truly Christ-like.

      However, we all talk about prayer and going to heaven and being with God or coming back as a butterfly or whatever, but everyday having and being apart of religion, looks worse and worse, but personal simplistic spirituality looks better and better.

      Hmmm. Just adding another point to the “s.b.n.r” vision. Me personally, I believe what I believe, I am how I am and thats why I most definitely agree with what you said about not having to (i went back to look for it and couldnt find it..am i crazy?) be outloud with it to BE it. Because if you ARE it, then you ARE w/o having to go church. And isn’t it truly about your relationship with God? because you are held accountable for the things you do, bc whether spiritual or religious, everyone’s trying to do the right thing.

      And, if I’m understanding the meaning of “false dichotomy” correctly, why does it have to be religion or spirituality? Why can’t it be a mix of both, suited for one’s own taste and personal relationship with God?

      Kinda Crazy Questions.

      But really, no matter if you’re spirtual or religious, God doesn’t change. We do. [If that’s who one believes in] and if one is really ridding themselves of what religion is to them, and chasing after God, to be Christ-like you’re always going to be led back to the Bible, and you will want to fellowship in this..leading to Church.

      Seems cyclical to me. I’m sorry I’m long-winded. But this is very interesting to me, just because this discussion can get very deep when it comes to people, especially people my age – college students and young adults trying to find self and come into their own, experiencing and changing so much all the time.

      I’m gonna write on this! I’ll link your page and post too my page when I do. So come read!

      && i really like your post. Got the juices flowin!

      ❤ Samm.

    • I believe that whatever your heart desires to do is what you want whether it is for good or for bad. I used to want only to do bad things, but truly God doesn’t control people, it’s what you really want in your heart and if some people subject themselves to religion based on trying to earn their way to God, then they really don’t desire in their heart, just in their mind. My heart is now desiring for God to use me for His good. Thank you again so much for sharing your thoughts and giving us this information to think of. I pray that God will bless you and your family.

  19. think what is usually meant is that religion is man-made tradition whereas spiritual is a phenomenon that happens on a personal level, free from all “man-madeness” and tradition, and thus… true?
    True. Nice post.

  20. This is so, so good, especially this: “I have found the phrase, “I am spiritual, not religious,” and its redheaded stepchild, “I follow Jesus, not tradition,” to be manifestations of spiritual pride, not spiritual enlightenment.”

    I have yet to meet someone who said they were spiritual but not religious who didn’t have some form of contempt for those who freely admitted to being religious.

  21. The phrase is often used as a cop out by those who don’t wish to deal with the conflict that inherently exists in religion. We come across something that exists in our religion that we maybe don’t like the sound of; it seems socially/ethically/morally okay, but the religion is seemingly very clear that it is sinful or wrong. So, instead of tackling the issue, learning more about it, researching, and praying – we convenience ourselves by simply saying that we no longer like religion or that we still believe in God but not in one that doesn’t allow [fill in the blank].

    People don’t like conflict. Religion breeds conflict, inner and otherwise. But that is what is supposed to be so great about it. It challenges us, causing us to question ourselves and grow in character, fellowship, and faith.

    Thanks for the great discussion you’ve started, and congratulations on being Freshly Pressed!

    • Maggie Red, thanks. I don’t usually comment on non-work matters. This post and your reply struck a cord in me. I have used the term of being deep in spirit, not religious. Why?

      It is a charged word that has many different meaning. I find it almost impossible to convey what *I* feel when *not-I* has a deep and complex feelings and beliefs associated with the term.

      I was discussing this very topic with a work associate. The old hebrew word for forty and many are very similar. I buy it rained for many days for Noah. I don’t believe it had to be exactly 40 days. Or that Moses was lost in the desert for 40 years, literally.

      Of course I could be incorrect.

      Isn’t part of the walk really thinking about all this?

      My facebook landing picture is me. I have rented a camel. I’m beginning the reverse walk from the Red Sea re-tracing a part of the path Moses took.

      My final rational is too often the name of religion is used to enslave others. I begin each wake up with 1 hr of thanks and asking for enlightenment. That is my version of praying. Not re-peating the words of others.

      Some strongly feel I’m ‘going to hell’ because I don’t things their way. OK. I’ll take my chances since I’m coming from my heart, and with deep faith.

  22. Interesting post and an excellent viewpoint.

    However, do you think most people make claims like, “I am spiritual, not religious,” because the churches have stopped teaching the Word of God long ago?

    Has the love of money, that’s so prominently displayed by the modern church, turned people off from the church? And in an attempt to find God, many have come to know and love phrases like the one you find so empty.

    The original church has long been replaced by, not as you say, “popes,” but by men and women who were supposed to preach and teach the Word of God, but have decided to deface and devalue God’s Word because of their greed. It started even in Paul’s day and has continued through the centuries.

    The whole world is lost. The only road map to God is His word. There is no other place on this planet where salvation can be found, except the Word of God.

    I like your site and I believe it has value. I, too, have a blog where I try to encourage people. I don’t always get it right, none of us do.

    Those that love God, even those who use phrases that are both popular and unpopular, are just trying to find their way.

    For those who seek glory for themselves, they will probably remain searching all their lives.

    Thank you for this spirited post. And congrats on being FP.

    If you get some free time, please visit our family blog:

    http://www.Cop-A-Squat.com

  23. My Aunt Peggy died in her early 70s. I visited her shortly before her death and we talked about this. Both of us were raised as Catholics and left that faith to travel a different road. My aunt seriously studied all the major religions and in that conversation she said she found that Zen Buddhism to be the most peaceful while Christianity and Islam were the most warlike and brutal.

    In addition, I have devout Christian friends that will respond that true Christians do not follow a warlike or brutal path but history shows us that millions that claimed to be Christians or Muslims, for that matter, interpret religion in different ways.

    I understand that there are about 40,000 different Christian sects and that they may not all agree on what the Bible teaches us. And that is understandable since the Bible was written by people that lived thousands of years ago and belonged to cultures that think very differently then we do today, especially in the West where we are more literal thinkers then metaphorical.

    • Well said. As a recovering Catholic who currently lives in an area that Jerry Fallwell once described as “the gold buckle on the Bible Belt”, I freely admit that I react to organized religion (particularly Christianity) with mistrust and, quite truthfully, some disdain.

      From my perspective, organized religion, (again, read Christianity since that is what I am most familiar with and surrounded by) seems to be an exclusionary thing – my way or the highway… to hell. It’s based more on people following man-made laws (the Bible was written by men, after all) than developing a “personal relationship with God” – a favorite expression of local Christians.

      One of my favorite (albeit trite) bumper stickers reads “God bless everyone – no exceptions”. Sadly, I do not see this as a Christian/organized religion world-view.

    • Maureen, trust me, you will find few people who understand being jaded by “organized religion” as I do. I’m sure we have many similarities on this point. But the phrase “organized religion” doesn’t help define the problems with some religious paths. Would one prefer “disorganized religion”? Also, how does one steer clear of man-made laws since the one who embarks on a spiritual journey is herself a human being? Are not the “laws” of spirituality (or whatever) determined by you – a human? Is your judgement better than the next guy, and if so by what standard? If spirituality is simply the ideas that occur to a person as they reflect on the supernatural and their life experience what is to assure that they are interpreting it all in truth and not according to some confused or pathological mental filter? Just some thoughts. Cheers.

    • Eric, I appreciate your views and your reply; however, (there’s always a “however”, isn’t there – it’s one of the things which makes this such a wonderful discussion) I’m not sure I agree with your contrast of organized religion with individual spirituality couched in terms of “interpreting it in all truth and not according to some confused or pathological mental filter”.

      Each of us views all of our existence through what we feel is our own truth and definitely through our mental filters. This applies to founders of organized religions as well as solo soul seekers – think Jim Jones….

      Is my judgement better than the next guy? For my life, I would have to say that the answer is yes, at least in many instances. Enlightened, intelligent or wise at the “other guy” may be – he hasn’t walked a mile in my moccasins – he may be asking different questions, or seeking answers from a completely different perspective.

      One of my “issues” with organized (perhaps “mainstream” is an alternate term?) is that many do not encourage individual thought, but rather blind adherence to dogma. For those individuals for whom this works – I am sincerely happy – and perhaps at times even envious – it seems simpler to be able to say ‘Yes’ and stay that course, follow that path, no matter what (and I’m not over-simplifying this – I know people for whom this is absolutely the case – their faith is never questioned, it is strong, unshakeable and a huge part of who they are).

      Perhaps it is the questioning/rebellious side of me which cannot be content with this answer. In the end, we all must seek our own truths, and how, when or whether we find them is the fabric on which the human experience is stitched.

      Thank you again for this post – you have started an “Important Discussion” which has made so many of us think even more on who we are.

  24. For me, I’ve used that phrase in the past simply to mean, “I’m a stone atheist, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have an experience of the numinousness of the universe.” I’ve also used it to mean, “I’m not into organized faith even in the slightest, but I still appreciate Big Questions.”

    I stopped using it when I realized that it had somehow started to mean, “I enjoy thinking about the big stuff but I’m not a member of any organized religion, and please don’t hurt me.”

    At that point, I realized it was effectively an apology for being atheist. I stopped using it then. I am atheist. And I also have an enjoyment of the Deep, Big Questions and the numinous nature of the universe. Those are not part of being religious OR spiritual, although the people on that side of the fence like to act as if they have a lock on it. Those ruminations are part of being human, and they are not the exclusive property of people who go to a special building once a week to compare clothing, whatever that may be.

  25. I think I first heard the phrase being used to identify that faith is a spiritual connection and that religion is could be interpreted as ritual – I felt it was like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It’s one of those phrases that people adopt thinking it makes their faith more approachable – but I have always thought it to be a bit of a lost leader.

  26. Interesting post. And I say that because, being surrounded by Hindus, and being a Hindu myself, I have heard this phrase time and time again. I think, at least for Hinduism, it has to do with the stigma that surrounds practicing Hindus, especially among the younger generations. We have seen our parents and grandparents practice this religion, and yet we do not see how their rituals and practices lead to a higher realm of knowing God. The younger generation tends to question a lot of these ritualistic forms of practicing the Hindu religion, and naturally distance themselves from it. But that is usually because they do not understand what religion is.

    I don’t mean to write a novel, but your post made me think (success for the day!). The concept clicks when you truly delve deeper into religion (and I’m referring mainly to what I understand of Hinduism – this may be true of all religions, but I am not well versed enough in Christianity or other religions to speak for them). Spirituality is a way of relating to your soul, and perhaps taking it to the level of creating a set of guidelines or values to lead your spirit/soul towards a direction of your choosing. Religion is showing reverence to a God, or higher spirit that will lead you towards a goal, and in the case of organized religion, may include participating in certain rituals and tasks to aid you in relating to this God or higher spirit. Take away all the frills, and spirituality and religion are the same concept – devoting a piece of your mind and energy to pursuing the definition of something that is unknown to you, and a set of principles put forth to guide your journey.

    So separating spirituality and religion, and adding an air of condescension when saying you are “spiritual” may indeed be an indicator that said person doesn’t truly understand either concept. However, I don’t agree with the fact that these people who say they are “spiritual and not religious” are empty – I would say they simply don’t understand, or are afraid to be associated with what they may perceive as those “weak and blindly following” religious people. Everyone defines their journey towards their goal in their own way.

  27. Pingback: “I’m spiritual, not religious” « muddiedwater

  28. I too, have had the experience of finding that phrase to be the herald to a lot of vapid self-centred emotionalism.

    But I also understand that people use the phrase as short-hand for their frustration and bewilderment at recognising that this creation is undoubtedly spiritual in origin and purpose, but they can’t find a form of religion that they can agree with. Like me, they hear the central tenets of the main western religions and just can’t square them with the experience of living.

    I could go on, but that would take us into the consideration of what might form the basis of a modern approach to concepts of god, divinity, purpose and natural order. And this is not the place to try to do that.

    But thank you for an interesting read.

  29. I’m not Christian. I’m Pagan, but even in our community this can be a problem. For us, it’s mostly because people don’t want the stigma of labeling themselves Pagan in a society where that as seen as a weird and scary other, even if their beliefs fall in line with those of (neo) Paganism. Many people misunderstand the faith, avoid the label, or think that it is much more concrete (such as Wicca only) than it is.

    I, too, get very frustrated with the phrase but for slightly different reasons. If people just fessed up to their religion and embraced it, it would help dispel so much stigma and fear. People could just be who they are.

    Thanks for this interesting article and congrats on FP.

  30. Pingback: “I’m spiritual, not religious” « Life Of A Seventeen Year Old

  31. Great post! I too am guilty of having used this phrase to internally define or measure my level of Christian growth. Although it wasn’t intentionally meant to demean one or the other, but I have received or sensed through various teachings and some conversations with others that “religious” portrayed a more Pharisee type of view. Your post was enlightening and I also agree that the term “religious” and “spiritual” are connected and also play a vital role in the foundations of Christianity. Thanks for sharing!

  32. Reblogged this on daniel.favand and commented:
    Eric Hyde offers some thoughts on the term “spiritual but not religious” (SBNR) arguing that it imposes a false dichotomy on one’s faith. Most poignantly, he writes “But what I encountered with the historic Church was a religion that was far more advanced spiritually than I ever dreamed of being as a Christian solo artist.”

    Hyde offers some good thoughts so far as he goes, but he remains firmly within Christian thought, not considering that a perhaps those who describe themselves this way aren’t just distancing themselves from Christian “religion,” but also incorporating aspects of other world religions into their spirituality.

    Then, of course, there is the argument that in some ways the SBNR’s are in their own sort of tradition, one of individualism and pragmatism. While perhaps not a traditional “religion” in the Western Christian sense, they are certainly not free of culturally imposed ways of thinking about their faith or spirituality.

  33. That false dichotomy gives you less of both spirituality and religion and puts you on a difficult road where you have to reinvent the wheel for your Christian walk. It’s good to remember we are walking not only in Christ’s footsteps, but in the footsteps of the Christians who followed Christ before us.

  34. Wow, I’ve been trying to say this and get people to understand for a very long time. You have expressed my thoughts exactly. Thank you so much for sharing 🙂

  35. I agree with everything you said and I want to hug you. I often feel as though I am the only one in the room that flinches when someone says, “It’s a relationship, not a religion,” or exactly as you said, “I’m spiritual, not religious.” I am so surprised to be on the Freshly pressed page and find this… Thank you. Cheers.

  36. Anyone who is truly spiritual knows that Christianity was a marketing decision. Religion was created not by Jesus, but by a group of people who want to control another group.
    Religion must be abandoned completely to be spiritual. It’s a cute idea, and a nice set of “guidelines” but it doesn’t lead you anywhere. It’s just a label. The “I follow Jesus therefore I am spiritual” is just another one of Christianity’s many slogans. Yeah yeah, we get it, it’s not just about following the ten commandments perfectly and putting your right hand over left when receiving the holy sacrament of communion (I was raised Catholic)… but just believing that a fictitious superhero (jesus) must be “followed” deviates from true spirituality and becomes just another “rule”.
    True spirituality just is. Simple. Nothing added. You don’t need to follow anyone or be “Christ-like”. Humans are spiritual beings already. No heaven, no hell. Just living life and enjoying it while you’re here.
    The Jesus idea is cute. But then again, he’s just the protagonist to a very ancient science-fiction story.

    • I don’t think you can abandon religion and still be spiritual, at least not according to the actual definition of the word: “concerned with religious values”, “of or relating to sacred matters”, “ecclesiastical rather than lay or temporal “, “of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena”.

      Maybe it’s kind of like the way we think of the word gay – we all know it can be used to mean happy, but it seldom is anymore.

    • Actually you can. Religion is a set of ideas constructed with a certain set of values and rules. We are spiritual beings living a human experience. Being “spiritual” doesn’t mean following a set of rules somebody made up. It means following yourself as you truly are, just letting yourself be your highest and most divine potential. A list of 10 commandments won’t tell you that

  37. You’re right. “Spiritual” has become meaningless. I will cease and desist, but on to the tone of condescension–there were a few notes of, though barely detectable of course, in your writing. We all get so hung up on labels and protection of our own label that in the end it does sound like the tower of babel. I’m now left with nothing to call myself without sounding snooty, though I’ve also noticed it’s not truly descriptive of what I think and “religion” is held, well, by religions.

  38. We’re told Russian Communists were neither spiritual nor religious. But things changed when the then, and most famous until now, Russian president Mikhail Gorbachev went on record, saying – religions build nations.

    A good thoughtful read indeed. You bisected the subject so well.

  39. I’ve often regarded being “religious” as a state of following a set of belief system, where there’s usually a higher power (god) and you reach externally for it. Spiritualism is to me, an act of reaching inwardly for strength and goodness where all the power is. Some people are religious while others are spiritual but some are both.

    I was raised as a Christian but I drifted away because (excuse this if it’s weird) I find that Christianity doesn’t resonate with my soul, and I don’t believe there’s a God. I give up church and instead, seek a fulfilling life being ‘not religious, but spiritual’, meaning I adopt my own belief system (call it a religion?) where I learn to follow intuition and beauty and lead a rich inner life and connect myself on a spiritual level with other things in this world.

    I think the difference between me and you is the interpretation of the word ‘religious’. You’re saying not-blindly-following-religion (yes?) while I’m saying I-don’t-have-a-religion. Maybe I should get rid of that word altogether and next time someone asks me, I could simply say I don’t have a religion.

    I confess that your post confused me a little but thanks for bringing me to this new thought.

  40. I share with you three things… I loved your thoughts on the phrase referenced (and now follow you), to the young party just ahead of me I offer this…
    “Your living is determined not so much by what life brings to you as by the attitude you bring to life; not so much by what happens to you as by the way your mind looks at what happens.”
    ― Kahlil Gibran
    and I’ll share my sameness to point here… (http://wordsthathavemeaning.wordpress.com/2012/11/22/what-do-you-want/ ) a work called,”What do you want?”©

    Thank you for your honesty… it shows through this writing.

  41. Please answer this for me: when I say that I find solace, or sanctuary, or calm…in nature, and if I define that as being spiritual, do you assume that I think that being spiritual is good and being religious is “evil”? I hope not. I was rather put off by your assumption that those who say to you that they are spiritual and not religious are equating the first with good and the latter with evil. Wow. I would hope to see a bit more generosity of spirit than I am seeing in this post.

  42. I love the truth you display in such simple language. thank you for not decorating your thoughts with undue and over the top phrasing. this was beautifully said.

  43. Pingback: “I’m spiritual, not religious” « Welcome to f1solutionslko.com

  44. I usually don’t comment on things like spirituality as it’s an intensely personal thing for most people. I don’t really ascribe a label to myself, but I have given churches their chances over the years.

    I never had a problem with God and still don’t. The problem I had was getting comfortable in a church. Even inside the same sect, each individual church carries its own flavour depending on who’s ministering in it. You get the patient, gentle pastoral types in some; the bible thumping sort in others and everything in between.

    Why do some of the messengers act like it’s more about them than the message? Why must there be an ego at the altar?

  45. It has been months since I checked out the “freshly pressed” section….I am just pleasantly surprised that something on the topic of religion/spirituality has been freshly pressed! Great post, and congrats on being freshly pressed.

  46. Pingback: From religious to spiritual | March of the Gypsies

  47. Well written, powerful and thought provoking post. This is a huge topic and you introduce it well…and there’s a lot more to be explored/said here. What about the challenge of teachers to bring some sense of meaning, something deeper into the classroom and into their interactions with children but without using dogma or favouring any particular religion? Can that be done though helping and encouraging people to connect with their own very personal way of knowing there’s ‘something more’? I can’t really describe it in detail here but here’s a link to an amazing book on this topic
    http://passageworks.org/rachael-kessler-3/rachael-kessler-2
    I agree the term ‘spiritual’ can be used in a wishy washy way, but I don’t think it’s helpful to dismiss the term outright or to say it’s always connected to religion in some form. You’ve fired me up…I might need to write on this myself now! Thank you:-)

  48. When I first read the title for this post I was like, “Oh, my. Another we-are-the-world-new-age-spirituality post with 2 thumbs up from wordpress!” Glad to know it was quite the opposite! Loved your post! Couldn’t agree more!

  49. I approach this reply with caution, that said I forge on…
    Spirituality does exist, whether it has anything to do with our conception of religion is another story.I agree that the ” I’m spiritual not religious” statement is thoughtless. Mainly because it shows lack of thought, more precisely lack of honesty.If the speaker is trying to say they don’t believe in God, then say so.

    Spirituality is confused with religion. Attending church or studying the bible doesn’t necessarily make one spiritual. Nor does the absence of either exclude inner peace.

    My family was driving through a deserted portion of a Navajo reservation in the south west. We pulled off the road to watch a massive thunderstorm approach. Out of no where an elderly Navajo man appeared. he started to speak; he told us why earth had sent the storm, he talked about the balance of nature and our lives. His tired old voice voice trailed off; I turned to thank him but he was gone. Desperate to find him we drove back and forth along that road. He had vanished.

    Never before or since that encounter have I felt as “spiritual”.He is responsible, in so many ways for how I now view the world. Spirituality is not religion, rather reverence and thanks for our delicate existence. Spirituality is a personal awakening. Many find it in the bible, or like me – at the side of a deserted highway.

    Although declaring to be “spiritual, not religious” may be annoying – may I suggest a little tolerance. Faith is not defined by God, Mohamed or Buddha. Spirituality on the other hand defines acceptance and open-mindedness Spirituality doesn’t judge or exclude.It may not come with hail Mary’s or commandments, it certainly doesn’t expect donations, or tweet. Spirituality is simply a way of saying our world is a wonderful place full of infinite possibilities. .

  50. Wrong and presumptuous in many ways. a) the phrase does not mean the same thing to all people. b) the phrase does not imply the speaker thinks religion is ‘evil’ (talk about meaningless terms, try defining that one without reference to a supreme evil being, and you will find your self trapped in circular logic), but merely inaccurate and misleading c) ‘religion’ is normally associated with large institutions with much dogma, which many people do not wish to be associated with. d) agnosticism could fit this label although it is more of a statement of belief than any practice, although agnostics may certainly practice. e) perhaps people who use it seek ‘spiritual’ *experiences* while trying to avoid pre-built conceptual systems, belief in deities or the afterlife, etc.

    Your statements may or may not be true of the ‘spiritual but not religious’ Christians you have encountered, but these are a tiny subset of the people using the label, and the things you know about their thinking and lifestyles are a tiny subset of what could be known. ‘consensus reality’ does not look the same even from the vantage points of things very near to each other… so much less so from where i stand to where you stand. groups are not uniform or fungible.

    quantum indeterminacy, psychic relativity, entanglement, sheldrake, cognitive science, blah blah blah

  51. This phrase annoys me too, but I think it depends somewhat on the spirit in which it is said. If it is said in a patronising, anti-tradition, judgemental way then it sucks. But some people just mean that they want a relational faith (where they believe God is close to them) rather than a “religious” (ie based on rules and legalism and rituals) faith. I heard someone say that “religion is man’s efforts to get closer to God, while the relational forms of Christianity are all about god wanting to get closer to man”. Some would argue that all religious effort is null, simply because it is God who has bridged the gap by sending Jesus. Nothing we can do religiously will get us closer to God – we can already go there thanks to grace.

  52. I think you are right about the man-madeness feel to religion that self-described spiritual people think they are side-stepping when they plump for spirituality. However, I think you are wrong that they think religion is evil since it apparently stands opposite to the natural goodness of spirituality.

    I think much more likely in most cases is that spiritual people feel that religion has either been debunked (they probably can’t be bothered to go into why and how) or that it has simply gone stale from centuries of musty decay in cold churches. In short, it is old-fashioned and in today’s world, at least for people attracted to ‘spirituality’, nothing could be more off-putting.

    I also disagree with you that it is impossible to uncouple genuine spirituality from religion since you will simply be making things up to suit yourself. I am neither spiritual nor religious, but I can imagine someone staring out of the window and sensing the hugeness of space and time. This is closer to what I imagine a real spiritual experience to be, rather than what people often mean when they say they are spiritual i.e. that they aren’t as interested (or so they think) in money and material stuff. I think a lifetime of quiet thinking about your life experiences and mistakes, the almost painful nostalgia for time lost and ebbing away but all mixed with a profound sense of the richness and colour of the experiences you had is as spiritual as anything religions and New Age nonsense have to offer. And this can be had outside of organised religions. You just need to have had a rich life and a sense of fondness for it.

    Anyway, I enjoyed your article.

  53. Pingback: What People Say

  54. That’s pretty intense…I’m glad there’s really something “new” featured today. Anyway, in connection to what you have said there, can I just say “I’m not religious, but I follow the golden rule?”

    See, I’m definitely not the person to talk to regarding this stuff. Just sayin’.

  55. For a while when I was questioning my religion, I said this. And yes, I did stop and think. I think it just meant something else to me than it did to everyone else.

    To me, it meant, “I don’t believe in the religions, but I believe in… something”. Meaning that I was so sick of Christians telling me that I believed in nothing ie I have a hole in my soul, detached from humanity etc etc, that I wanted to hit back by saying that wasn’t true. By ‘spiritual’, I meant that I believed in things that held heavy significance in the world, that I wasn’t hollow or shallow, but people just took it mean ‘I believe in religion, just not strictly’.

    I cannot tell you how much it pissed me off. So I stopped saying it.

    Now I realise I was never spiritual. And what’s wrong with that? It doesn’t mean I’m discompassionate, or shallow… It certainly doesn’t make me nihilistic. It just means I don’t believe in god or deities.

    I think it just means I have more sense than most, who I view as living in fairytales. It just means I’m grounded onto earth.

  56. I enjoyed that read, thank s for your blog, really well thought out and written and in a sense helped redeem the meaning of the words spiritual and religous.I to struggle with peoples misconceptions of what these phrases mean and can make one somewhat reticent in using them so as not to be associated with the negative conotations of the word.In the end we shouldn’t judge, but if we are to make conclusions ,i would suggest it is better to observe the fruit ,deeds and actions of someones life rather than the word we might or are attributed to them…

  57. I love it here, in Russia, when 6 out of 10 say they are Orthodox Christians, who do not go to churches because they believe in god, but not the god that can be found in the Russian Orthodox Church. Such a mess in the head…

  58. I totally agree Eric. I tend to simply use classical christianity in place of spirituality or religion simply for contextual reasons.

    Our society is getting more aggressive over all religions. Fueled by New atheism movement that started on 9/11, which paints all religions as evil and anti-science. Gradual acceptance of homosexuality, abortion on demand, exploring your sexuality before marriage also hugely contribute towards negative view of those religions that stand in opposition to sexual liberty.

    Spirituality often get a free pass, because like Bhuddism, and other mystic eastern religions, of finding peace, inner-self et cetera appeal to spiritual hungry people because they are a form of freestyle soul seaking often without being bound by dogmas.

    I am sympathetic with a Christian who claim to be spiritual and not religious, because religion as understood by our culture is not religion understood fews years back nor in early church.

    So for contexualization sake, I think I would agree with the use of the tearms, but if one knows what religion is, in its proper form, then I see no need to separate the two.

    Prayson

  59. Rather than assume you know what people mean by the phrase, why not just ask?

    The notions of spirituality and religion are deep oceans that can lead to fascinating dialogue when you are not quick to judge.

    • Bar none, in my experience, every single person I’ve come across, either talking to directly or reading/listening to them describe their spirituality is in fact NOT spiritual. Most have delusions and ignorance about faith, theologies and belief, the world and their place in it, but above all, their interaction with God.

  60. Before this blog I didn’t realize how others interpreted that statement. To me that statement means, I have faith in God, but not so much in man so I do not regularly attend a specific organized service. I do however, have discussions with Christians and non-Christians about our mutual interpretations of the Bible. That’s where the word play gets confusing, because whenever two or three are gathered in His Name is it not a “church”. Can one have the goal of distancing herself from the mess that human’s make (pedophilia, wars, discrimination, hatred) in their misguided understanding of religion and still adhere to Christian faith?

  61. Reblogged this on Diary of An Ugly Kid. and commented:
    And I know that this article is the what which can describe my every thoughts about religion and spirituality. The so called religions are failed to cater my spirituality and at this phase, i know that all are made by minds.

  62. I’ve always thought this, but from another side: I’m an atheist. And as an atheist the idea that people could be spiritual but not religious just seemed odd, as I equate the two. Then again, my ex, a catholic turned atheist, used the phrase himself, in what came to mean, as far as I know, “I don’t think I have any answers to why we experience things the way we do, but sometimes what we experience transcend logic and what seems possible.” He was also a nut, though, so I didn’t entirely take it seriously.

  63. “spiritual not religious” aka “I don’t want to take responsiblity for what my religion is so I’ll use the word spiritual and feel superior to everyone.” It’s also comes in the form “It’s not a religion, it’s a relationship.”, “I practice “x” Christianity which is the only real one.” and “Those parts of the bible I like are the ones that God really meant, and those other inconvenient ones are “obviously” not meant for me”.

  64. Interesting concept! Definitely got me thinking of the spiritual/religion dichotomy. May even write a blog on it soon. Great post !

  65. I have found that pretty much anyone and everyone who claims to be spiritual – but not religious – usually says that specifically against Christianity. I’ve also found that if they do claim to be a Christian, but spiritual – not religious – their knowledge and walk is about the same as a wet dishrag on a sandy beach. It’s mostly for show, and as you point out, pride. I think they’re largely blind to their own ignorance.

    As for clearly nonChristians who claim to be spiritual and not religious, they’re not just wet rags on a beach; they’re like a windsock, poorly tied during a windstorm. A little bit of Buddha, a little bit of Tao, a little bit of this, and a little bit of Gaia, etc. to the point that I can only pity them in their delusions of “piety and wisdom”.

  66. when people refer spiritual or spirituality they specifically like to detach themselves from the institutions of their religion whether it is Christianity, Hinduism or Buddhism etc. Religion generally indicates the traditions and many don’t like to follow traditions hence they refer spiritual.
    Current new jargon on the block is “practicing christian” which raise many eyebrows.
    I prefer the term “Conscious living” which accommodates all the people who live by the rules and have a fellow human consideration and that is what is missing in this current world!

  67. Great post! I think it is healthy to cause people to think about what they believe. Congratulations on Freshly Pressed too!

  68. Interesting points, and It’s really cool to see an article about this. I am one of those spiritual but not religous people, you speak about. In my opinion, there is a difference. I do go swimming, and I do get wet, lol!! However and this is just how I see my own belief- it is the organization that makes it religion in otherwords, I am swimming with no direction or plan whereas one who calls himself religous usually has both plans and direction.

  69. YES! Right on, friend! An eloquent and bracing dissection of a vacuous and vapid phrase — all the worse for usually being delivered with an unbearable air of condescension and a nose propped high in the air. People who claim to be spiritual and not religious are really saying, “I want to be taken seriously, but I don’t want to actually work at my relationship with God or devote serious thought to taking any faith tradition or church teaching literally. I’d like to reblog this, with your permission.

  70. I hear that phrase more and more these days, but I think it points to a deeper issue rooted within today’s religious practice.

    I’m not saying religion itself is the culprit. But I think that when people think of “religion”, they perceive the very type of religion that Christ himself condemned. The pharisees in the world… those who were so caught up in rules that they created that they missed the very essence and purpose of that religion: the love within ourselves and others, and spiritual fulfillment it that religion was originally meant to produce.

    And so the issue, truly, is within ourselves. Each person is responsible for their own spiritual fulfillment. Whether you call it religion or spirituality, the real question is are you genuine? Do you really mean it? And does it really mean anything to you?

  71. “Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion–several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn’t straight.” – Mark Twain

  72. I think the truth can be expressed through words or spirit. I think many people relate religion to spectacle, tradition, imagery, literature and scripture. I think many believe spirituality, though eternal, is internal. The truth probably exists somewhere between these two extremes.

    As Hafiz wrote: “If you think the Truth can be known from words, If you think the Sun and the Ocean can pass through that tiny opening called the mouth … O, someone should start laughing! Someone should start wildly laughing. Now!”

    Of course, he used words to describe this thought. 🙂

    Very thoughtful post and thought provoking, as witnessed by the fervent response. Well done.

  73. The thing that I find most intriguing about this whole issue is that no one really knows, apparently. Whether we call it religion or spirituality is of little consequence. What we are trying to understand is, what is going on here or what is this all about? Here we are aware of our existence in a very complex but orderly and balanced universe that surely must be authored by a Creator or much higher intelligence. Yet, no one really knows. Why? If this Creator created us, it must have been for a reason, yet we don’t really know. Of course, many will be very quick to jump up and claim such knowledge but there is little agreement.

    Consequently, it seems to me, we can conclude that God did not intend us to know. Yes, different versions of, so called, “God’s Word” exists but they are all so ambiguous and diverse nothing definite can be deduced.

    There must be a much larger purpose than we are currently able to understand. And I do not believe it is terribly significant what our interpretation of it all is at this point. If it was, surely a loving Creator would be quite clear about it.

    I suspect we are each a story book of different experiences and at different stages of completion. When the final chapter is written and the book closed we will advance to much greater understanding of what we really are.

  74. Love the reasoning in your article here.

    I don’t like it when I hear that line either, or when I hear them describe me as “spiritual” almost in objection to my admitting that I am “religious” because they happen to not to be religious and also happen to like me at the same time. Do people not know that religion is from a belief system which is spiritual in nature? Saying that I am religious means that I am spiritual, and the reverse is common as well.

    I wish they knew.

  75. The only reason I identify myself this way is because I do not belong to any “religion” in the organized sense, so it’s happened to be a good way to clarify my beliefs. I don’t use it to say that anyone who identifies/is identified as religious is evil or bad or wrong; it’s just simply a difference that people understand as speaking more to my individual choices, as, in my experience, religion most commonly denotes someone as belonging to a group. However, I recognize that each person belonging to a religion practices and interprets it at least slightly differently than the rest, so maybe, I ought to stop using that distinction. Until there’s a better way to describe it, though, I will keep using this phrase, though I will likely be a little more mindful of what it can be taken as in the future.

  76. The statement is one that’s long troubled me, too, for far more reasons than we’ll touch on in the back-and-forth here. For me, the entire debate hinges on whether one has had profound, transformative experiences of the Holy Spirit, however we name it, and then found a circle of others also grounded in similar encounters and an ensuing discipline. It’s something that hopefully leads to a living faith tradition where our assumptions and expectations can be tested and validated or reshaped, and our self-delusions and excuses stripped away (preferably gently).
    Without the experience, one faces dry intellect or ritual or custom and habit, which is likely what is being derided as “religion.”
    Without the circle and its spiritual discipline, though, one’s outlook will likely remain self-centered, the insights fail to take root and bear fruit, and one may remain unchanged in his or her daily conduct. This, then, can sit under the smug claim to be “spiritual.” It can even have more to do with an aesthetic than any encounter with the Spirit of the Holy One.
    I’ve been blessed with such circles throughout my adult life, and the friendship of many remarkable men and women. Not all of them, I might add, have been Quaker or even Christian, but all have been filled with the Light described in the opening chapter of the Gospel of John. And all have been part of living faith circles.

  77. Whether the person is born to be spiritual is shown on the palm line = between the top-line (which is the reflection of the person’s emotion) and the second or center line (shows intelligence) —–
    (incidentally, the third line, around the bottom of the thumb shows
    the physical life) —– there should be the line called [Spiritual line]
    which is the X mark or the cross in the center of the palm between
    the Top and second line. (got to be independent line = not a part of another line)
    I’ve seen this line on 4 palms which convinced me the person’s
    credibility. (I met number of the leaders of their religious sect though, non of them had one = they are sham)

  78. Only when asked will I say I am agnostic. I wouldn’t dream of asking anyone else about something this personal. But that aside, this is an excellent blog on the subject, well done.

  79. I believe “spiritual but not religious” is a category invented by those Americans who have left the Christianity of their birth and embraced Hinduism and other Eastern mystic practices. They can’t call themselves Hindus because they are afraid of being clubbed with the cows, the caste system and other unsavoury aspects of Hindu culture. Consequently, they proclaim their freedom by resorting to this subterfuge of being “SBNR”.

  80. I think that “spiritual” is the experience of the divine on an individual level, and “religious” is the experience of the divine on a group level. Spiritual is good because it keeps the experience safe from potential judgments of the community, but bad because it potentially only reflects the ego, right or wrong, with no checks. Religious is good because humans need community and need to connect on deep matters. However, everyone knows that religion is rife with judgment.

    BTW both spirituality and religion can be rule-based and dogmatic, and both can be enlightening. I think that Americans are becoming more spiritual and less religious for the same reason that all our communities are breaking down. Americans don’t stick well to communities like they used to.

  81. Very interesting points in this article. You have made me consider exactly what I mean when I use that phrase, and yes, I do use it.

    I think religion is a beautiful, peaceful and an altogether enviable way of living. I am not religious in that I believe in one specific God, or any kind of God. I explore how to develop the inner self and inner peace – this in some regards is spiritual.

    I agree that people use the phrase out of term, but it means different things to different people.

  82. I’m catholic, and proud. And you’re right. People who claim to be spiritual, not religious, seek comfort. The comfort of “believing” in Jesus, while not being obliged to do anything special. Catholicism is really, really beautiful.

  83. Congratulations on receiving so much interest your post. I guess for me I find the terms spiritual and religious particularly irksome as they are both gross generalisations of very subjective experiences. I myself would consider myself as devout as any Christian in my own beliefs although I am not a practising Christian in ‘conventional’ terms. Some might consider me to be quite ‘spiritual’ because of the work that I do, but from my point of view my beliefs are unique and stem from a lifetime of experiences that are again uniquely my own. In fact there are few words that can adequately express my own experiences and set of beliefs without painting a very vivid and often incorrect picture of who I am and what I do, as is true of us all to one extent or another. Words, terms such as these are semantic bridges, and they serve a purpose in conveying ideas in a digestible way that can be broadly understood. However, they do not justify the individual, nor should they. We are each who we are, and words are words. The intent behind the words is ultimately what counts, and what is conveyed.
    I enjoyed reading your post and the comments. Lots of food for thought.

    Warm regards!

  84. I’ve just read the blog I’m spiritual, not religious. Well when I say I’ve read it I have to admit I’ve just come home from a brief visit to the pub and checked my emails,as you do and what should I find but a link to this.
    I have no religion myself although always at school one was encouraged to admit to C of E ( Church of England, for those of you not from UK) which meant we were taught the King James Bible which contained many parabels which were taught to us.
    It wasn’t until some time later that we realised that it was not actually bible studies but a lesson in life skills which was being taught.
    Take for example the story of the good Samaritan who comes across a man who has been beaten and robbed, he is preceeded by a priest and a Levite who both pass by on the other side and yet this Samaritan goes to the aid of the man who has in modern parlance ‘been mugged’.
    Now in modern terms, would you rush across a road to come to the aid of a fellow human being mugged, risking being beaten up or stabbed yourself.
    Thank fully I’ve never been put to the test in this way and I hope I never am.
    Modern life leaves us all a little jaded and so many times I’m reminded of the biblical quote from John 11.35 ( the shortest verse in the bible, so I’m led to believe) which is of course ‘Jesus wept’, I don’t believe it. Although the ‘I don’t believe it’ part of the quote is obviously from Victor Meldrew.
    However I digress, as usual and finally have to make the point of this interjection, which is; that I find it hard to be religious or spiritual, in fact the nearest thing I can do to be spiritual is to order another Bombay Gin and Tonic and having had a few, walk home hoping not to come across the victim of a mugging on the other side of the road.

  85. I just wanted to add the following to my comment above:
    Language is a tool for conveying ideas and as such we choose to use certain words and genres of language that are adequate within our social context. So in added response to Eric Hyde’s blog above, you are naturally not going to use words that do not describe you in the best possible light, or that you know will be misunderstood by those around you. So it’s fine to be ‘Spiritual but not religious’ if it fits the occasion. I guess that would be my academic view of it as a student of language and linguistics, but also my own personal view.

  86. I respect the religious, anyone trained, ordained and organized, be it the clandestine paedophiles, be it the champions of hot morale air blowing, each pandering to his respective paying crowd, be it the autistic, dry or simply very lonely men because they all have learnt how to read great books and will fantasize along with it.

    I regard the spiritual, the hippy dippy cosmorgastic otherhugging selffinding ego- and world-therapeuts because they have learnt how to fantasize soul-nourishing pipe dreams and come up with something colorful in regular intervals and then they read up on “it”, whatever the read to their respective “it” may be.

    I am delighted to hear who is spritual, not religious, or vice versa, or rather non, or perhaps both because thus the human game continues to engage my concern and entertain my folly.

    But to this day I can detect nothing devine in so spirited heave and ho, nor can I fully detect where the righteousness stays and only selfrighteousness continues. But then, who cares? You do? Well, by all means do care, you are entitled to a good romp around the playground of human experience, certainly just as much s any other.

  87. Great.This is great.

    Here is something else that bugged me last week. Bill O’Reilly claiming that “Christianity is not a religion; it is a philosophy.” That’s like having a religion but denying the power thereof.

    Those who worship God, must worship in spirit and in truth.

  88. I’m confused by the statement: “If one is taking scripture as a guide, religion can be either pure or false.” Is this the position you advocate? I agree that the “Spiritual/ Religious phrase is meaningless, so is the “pure or false” dichotomy. All religions are true in their way. And while I prefer a religion founded in compassion, it doesn’t mean it is true and not false. I may not relate to Scientology, for instance, but I would not feel qualified to to proclaim it a false religion.

  89. Reblogged this on The Daughter of Zion and commented:
    A well-written post by someone I don’t know personally. Where he mentions Tradition, we’d point first to God’s Word, but he is correct that the teaching of the apostles is referred to as tradition (or what is handed down — etymological meaning) in Scripture. Worth a read.

  90. hey! check out waiters union or some books of dave andrews, like “christi-anarchy” /http://www.daveandrews.com.au/publications.html) n if u have time, go to the 2 week training course: http://www.waitersunion.org/training.htm
    it talks a lot about spirituality stuff n open ups some real good stuff. it helped me a lot. check it out, honestly. x
    (being christian n not facing christian history n the power of the church, which the church uses to oppress ppl is just wrong. social justice. equality. doing the radical revolution like the way jesus did it. what is church? does god really know everything? why does he repent then? (ninive) is hell just something church invented to oppress ppl? I consider myself as a christian and I love to question everything especially myself in order to find the way to jesus… let’s not do stop questioning everything, let’s search, let’s find him, let’s build a church not for the poor, but OF the poor n give the rich the opportunity to change, amen.) so far from me.

  91. I could not disagree with this article more. This is so full of assumptions about what others are thinking that it has no merit whatsoever. It sounds like FOX propaganda preaching to those who already agree and nod. ( lots of nodders )

    I have made this statement recently after experiencing such a strong connection with nature, that I could only describe it as spiritual – and yes I did think about it a lot. I may mean this in a different way than you, but there are different meanings to words, and I don’t think of it as relating to God at all. This also does not contradict religion, it’s simply a different meaning of spiritual than you intend. Your second part of the second paragraph is the part that makes sense to me.

    I don’t see religion as evil, as you stated, although it has driven man to do evil things.
    I don’t agree that a small group a people are in charge of the rules that dictate how we should live. What’s acceptable to one religion is blasphemous to another, while praying to same God. I actually have no issues with religious people until they try force it upon me either through laws or just trying to convince others they have the right details of the story, and all the others are wrong.

    Maybe you need to accept that many people have spiritual feelings but do not like what they see as arbitrary rules of ORGANIZED religion. I’m amazed at the wonders of nature and feel a strong connection, contemplating on my own. I also do not think all the wonders of the planet were put her just for one species to enjoy. If there is a God he will surely be very upset at a lot of very religious people for there actions all week, not just on Sunday or Friday or Saturday or before sunset or after sunset, with wine or absolutely not.

    What you really mean at the end of this religious article, is that this statement has no meaning TO YOU! Just as your organized rules of the day have no meaning to me.
    Maybe I’ve taken a swim, gotten wet, enjoyed the water, but did not get stuck in a giant school of other fish swimming in the same direction – maybe toward a beautiful sunset, or maybe a wide mouth humpback whale.

    Ciao,

  92. There is plenty of meaning in the phrase! First of all Eric, your presupposition is incorrect, too broad a stroke. I’m glad you admitted that to M. Josiah. It’s not good vs evil at all. Your condescending statements tell everyone that not only are you not a True Christian but you are not spiritual either!
    By definition the two are interrelated yet that is not what is meant by most of the people I have met including myself who use it.
    “I’m Spiritual,” My beingness is not material or tangible and is sacred, all life is. “not Religious.” I will not push my beliefs on you and tell you that you are going to hell if you don’t believe like i do.

    Next time ask what they mean by that instead of thinking they are brainless and afraid of commitment. Thanks for getting people to think though the 50 responses I read don’t show they are thinking very much~lol
    Love Always~

    • Les, so you believe that I think certain “spiritual” folks are brainless, and then you proceed to label my first 50 readers as essentially brainless (i.e. thoughtless). Interesting.

  93. Reblogged this on friarmusings and commented:
    Today, as I write, is the Feast of St. Joh of the Cross. In his work, Ascent of Mt. Carmel, St John writes (to the effect), ask no more questions of God, but rather look to the person of Jesus – all the answers are there. To which I would add, and be humble about what you understand – “religion” and its adherents have been thinking about this for two millenia – and celebrating its revelation in ritual, traditions, Traditions, and all things peripheral to the core of Jesus – but (in my experience) all things that lead to the center.

  94. I agree wholeheartedly with this post. Very well-written as well.

    As an atheist, I feel it is similar to saying “I’m an atheist, but we just don’t know.” which is called agnosticism.

    I might add that I think there is a certain amount of arrogance from people who say “spiritual, not religious” like a lot of new age concepts, it seems to imply that you just don’t understand something.

    Great Work.

  95. Good job! I didn’t read all of the comments, so forgive me if you’ve heard this one already.

    I like a joke Daniel Tosh has that says “I like it when a girl says, ‘I’m not religious, I’m spiritual.’ I like to say to that ‘I’m not honest, but you’re interesting.” I think that fits.

  96. Nicely written. I agree with you to a large degree and love what you say about saying you are spiritual and not religious as being like saying that you went for a swim without getting wet. You do clearly seem to operate from the standpoint that to be religious is to be “Christian,” which I think is the same bias by which some people try to differentiate themselves from being religious as not wanting to be taken for Christian. On that note I have nothing against Christianity, per se. I think that when people who dislike religion and are in reality disliking Christianity, they are then lumping all of Christianity into its most negative image. Negative from their point of view. That it is all anti-science fundamentalism, and intolerant, to say nothing of hypocritical. Then the media supports this view as well. When do you ever see a news story about an honest priest who is not a predator of some sort? If I believe that you have a valid over all point about a lot of people who say they are spiritual but not religious, I would say that I more like the expression that “My God is bigger than your religion.” To some degree I think that every believer has something of an individual experience, and on top of that there are so many variations of Jude o-Christian beliefs. Then in addition there are so many *other* beliefs, any number of which, as far as I’m concerned, have validity. Personally I think that religions are imperfect human attempts to grasp something much larger that is ultimately valid. But that’s just my opinion.~Mike.

  97. I don’t have a problem when people say that they are Spiritual but not religious-to me, spirituality is a deep feeling of knowing God-understanding and feeling the love of God in a place that is not my flesh
    RELIGIOUS people are who killed Jesus-they practice the letter of the law without the love of God (Religiousity)- whereas Religion is, of course, the practice of your set of beliefs based on your interperatation of what the bible says-(as in Baptism)
    Therefore it is very possible to be Spiritual by reading the word of God while not being involved in a ‘formal’ church/religion

  98. Dear friend, I’m an Indian n by birth I’m Hindu. I’m poor in English, but anyhow I try to express my thoughts on your post in a simple style of English as much I know.
    See, there are many religions in the world n each of them has its own views about Almighty,the Supreme power n the entire universe. But we know all the views are only based on that particular religion n nobody can claim them “they are the only facts”
    All the religions n relatted activities are only “Leelas”(in SANSCRIT)/”THIRUVILAI YAADAL”(TAMIL) of the Supreme Power.
    But the Sprituality or Real Divinity is ABOVE ALL RELIGIONS. “SELF REALISATION” [which is called as ADHMA DARISANAM in Tamil] is the acheivement in SPIRITUALITY nthen only one can realise the Supreme Power. One need not be religious to attain this stage. We must first getrid of all the bindings n rituals of our religions try to realise ourselves.
    Thank you for the inspiraton you gave me to express my thoughts. Kindly forgive me if anything you feel wrong in my comment.
    With kind regards,
    A.S.RENGANATGAN, India.

  99. Then there is the question of how religion is to be defined. One definition, and one that really upsets some people, is that a religion is “a set of strongly held personal beliefs.” I kind of feel that everyone has faith of some kind, too. Like if you are an atheist, that involves a degree of assumption and is in its way a kind of faith. I used to be an atheist myself.

  100. In my case, I don’t have a religion and I am not religious. I do however have a personal relationship with Jesus and recognise Him as my saviour. I am not religious but out of my love for Christ, I do my best every day to live right by Him and in accordance to His Word. I don’t think it’s entirely accurate to say the phrase has no meaning. In this day and age, people are quick to judge you based on your religion. It’s not easy trying to explain a deep personal relationship versus a religion or religiou tradition.

  101. I love your style of writing… but I do not agree with you. I have a background in a religion that has hundreds of ‘Gods’ and ‘deities’ not to mention lots of superstitions entwined with religious ‘traditions’/rituals/rules. So when I say “I’m spiritual and not religious’ I believe that I’m actually contributing a bit towards removing some of those superstitions and I like what I am doing. But that does not detract in any way from the fact that I believe in God Almighty and I do have my favourites from those hundreds of ‘Gods’ too 🙂

  102. Spirituality is like religion in the sense that there are different beliefs and methods. But unlike religion, spirituality has not been the cause, and neither does it continue to be the cause, of so many deaths and so much hate. Man created religion, God didn’t. So to believe in God / the Creator / Allah doesn’t necessarily mean that you are religious.

  103. “I’m educated, not academic” — someone who reads and is informed widely, but has not graduated with a degree.

    “I’m a worker, not an employee” — someone who is self-employed, or freelance.

    We live in a rapidly changing, globalising culture, in which some people happily, effectively and gracefully find ways forward without the assistance of institutional life, as found in universities, corporations… They find their niches and are judged according the value of the work they produce. It can be a harder road than employment or academia, which inevitably ‘plot routes’ for people, to some degree.

    I use these examples from ‘secular’ life to illustrate that there is also a spectrum of experience with regard to both “the Divine” in the broadest sense and the institutions of faith and religion, on the other hand.

    I think this is what people are sometimes trying to express with the phrase “spiritual, not religious.” Great idea to explore this spectrum and how it’s referred to in every day life. Poor deduction to insist that anyone who uses it has a definite or particular agenda.

    Just as surely as there are loose cannons outside of institutional life, there are also lazy and manipulative people inside institutions. But to use the worst examples to define the whole, or the “typical” is unwise and unnecessary.

    Hope this helps to separate a bit more of the wood from the trees!

    I wrote a metaphorical analogy of the difficulty of “navigating the narrow path that leads to life” avoiding both the ‘bog’ of compliancy and the ‘desert’ of cynicism, which might interest some readers. (It can be found on my blog, linked via my WP avatar)

  104. (It seems my avatar links to another of my blogs.

    The article referred to is entitled “The Narrow Path That Leads to Life: Discovering a walk of faithfulness apart from both institutional compliancy and cynical posturing” — An analogy exploring institutional pressure to conform, on the one hand, and, on the other hand, for those resisting institutional conformity, the temptation to embrace a destructive cynicism. Between these two extremes is a path that embraces both human community and speaking truth to the strongholds of power.

    It can be found at http://eternalpurpose.wordpress.com/article/the-narrow-path-that-leads-to-life/

  105. I found this interesting how you suggest there is no difference between spirituality and religion; I disagree. I personally believe that they are / can be – perhaps this is a language usage issue. For me, religion is an activity and it’s organized by human beings that have an interest in control, but spirituality is what I feel when walking through a forest hugging trees or staring into the sky. I assume one could argue that the walk through the forest and the hugging of the tree is an activity, organized by plan and hence a religion – WHATEVER – do and think and love and play and enjoy as you like 🙂

  106. While you were writing your long, strong condemnation about Spiritual people did you ever conceder the fact that in most, if not all religion, one must side with their church and everyone else is wrong!
    If you are Spiritual, you get to pray anywhere in anyplace with anyone wishing to pray with you to one’s own Supreme being without fear of repercussion?
    Native Americans have one church, ( FEAR, LOVE, CREATOR)!

    • Sachem, you’ve actually illustrated my point brilliantly. You have defined your own spiritual awareness/journey according to a specific people group – Native Americans, and provided a short but beautiful creed, “Fear, Love, Creator.”

      Your Spirituality is the product of a religious tradition passed down to you from your spiritual elders and its in your bones! Difficult to separate the two, isn’t it?

  107. Pingback: Difference between Spirituality and Religion? « Jason Howard Peterson

  108. I appreciate your post and that it contains actual intelligent thought, Eric, but I don’t agree with your “throw the baby out with the bathwater” concluding lines.

    “No meaning whatsoever” is an absolute, and does not fit.
    “One of the emptiest phrases ever” may fit with your experience—and it would certainly square with my experience as well. I would agree that the vast majority of people who I have met who have used that phrase do not seem to be very interested in leading spiritual lives—at least not anything I can recognize as spiritual.

    What I take the phrase “Spiritual but not religious” to mean, in the best sense of the phrase, is that the person using it is investigating several different religions or religious traditions—Buddhism, Zen, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Catholicism, Taoism—and is studying or reading from various religious and spiritual texts and books. The person is a searcher, a spiritual seeker, and his or her life shows it. And the person is trying to understand or reconcile his or her temperament and personal beliefs with the challenges to them offered by this or that religious tradition.

    It’s a developmental phase in a person’s psychological and spiritual development.

    That’s what I take “spiritual and not religious” to mean, or what the phrase is supposed to mean.

    Very nice and well-written post, Eric.

    Kindest regards,

    John

  109. A biblical viewpoint of religion in the words of Werner Gitt: “…any and every human concept of God, as well as every philosophy with indisputable statements of belief and norms for behaviour, which consciously or unconsciously replaces the Creator God mentioned in the Bible” From the book “What about the other religions?”

  110. Hi Eric,
    Very thought provoking.
    I haven’t read all the posts so you may have already answered previously.
    I would like to approach your statement slightly different by defining what I mean by “religion” and what I mean by “Christianity.”
    For me “religion” means a man made belief system and for me “Christian” means a spiritual relationship with God the Father through Christ Jesus and having experienced the love of God. Christianity is all about your (two way) relationship with God and with one another.
    You express your love for God by loving man.
    Michael http://www.frm-inc.org

    • I guess my reaction is, why throw out humanity in one’s personal spiritual journey? Christianity has always been essentially a Church – Christ as head and we as His body. Christ’s incarnation is also the most intrinsic and important doctrine we have – that God became man and dwelt among us. If God Himself became man it means humans – dwelling in flesh and bones – are not evil. Human nature is not evil. We are evil when we follow our own selfish ambition, and we can do this alone just as easily as in a group, perhaps more so alone. Christianity is a tradition based on the Apostles who were all human beings. Our faith is not a gnostic faith where the material world including mankind are evil and our journey is performed strictly in our cerebral world. It is a community made of both divine and human, just like our Savior.

  111. Is helping widows and fatherless
    religion? Or is that merely being a nice person? Can’t atheists be nice like that too? Did Jesus perform miracles out of religion, or out of a spiritual connection? If I follow the teachings of the Old Testament am I a Christian? Did God want us to create a religion in order to have a spiritual connection with him?

  112. I think the letters to the 7 churches…pretty much sums up the “church” then and the “church” today…with 6 out of 7 of them needing change to be where they need to be with God. I also believe that the letters could speak to the “church” as a body of believers as well as the individual believer. I think the reason so many are preferring the term “spiritual” over “religious” is in an attempt to separate themselves from the wrong kind of “organized” religion. There are so many churches today that appear to be more in the “entertainmen” business than in the soul-saving business…and qenching the Holy Spirit at ever turn. I also personally believe that hardly any churches today, meet the test of true religion…if they were we might not have so many fatherless children without real role-models! We also wouldn’t see so many “widows, indeed” with homes rundown, lawns unmowed, sitting alone in nursing homes. The Word does NOT say you must gather in a building…but simply to gather together…and it actually says not to sit and warm a pew…but to “GO”…I think when the church gets its act together…maybe more Christians would consider using the term religious…but right now…the church itself has lent it a negative connotation. I don’t say I am religious OR spritual…I am simply a Christian who tries very hard to live my life pleasing to the Lord and by His Holy Word…hopefully succeeding more than failing. Twenty-five + years of being a believer…and still discovering more about Him than I could imagine…and love Him more with each passing day! Churches without walls…that’s not a bad thing. Many parts of the world don’t have buildings…like Amerca does…but that doesn’t stop people from gathering together…caring for widows and ophans…and anyone else in need. I don’t care what you call me…for me it’s not about spiritually or religion…it’s about my personal daily relationship with Jesus Christ, my Savior and Lord. Just sayin’

  113. ***Hi, this is my 3rd time trying to post a comment to this blog. For some reason every time I check to see if it’s up it says, “Comment awaiting moderation”. I’ve noticed dozens of new comments be posted after mine, so I don’t know what’s going on here. I don’t want to think you’re excluding my comment for some reason, but I honestly don’t know why my comment keeps getting overlooked while so many others are being accepted and posted…

    Hey Eric,

    Just stumbled upon your blog through a WordPress e-mail highlighting your post. I’m so glad I did! I feel called to say a few things:

    1. I think your post is right on and I’m glad you had the guts to post it. You’re obviously swimming against the current with your analysis, but hey, when isn’t following the not-so-comfortable truth counter-cultural?

    2. I couldn’t help but shake my head at the countless number of people who went crazy last year over Jefferson Bethke’s viral YouTube video “Why I Hate Religion, but Love Jesus”. It’s right up there with “I’m spiritual, but not religious”. So much sense mixed with so much nonsense. And the the majority of Christians took it all hook, line, and sinker…

    *If you’re interested, Fr. Barron (who has a boatload of incredibly insightful, thought-provoking YouTube videos) tackles this topic much in the same way as you did. You can see it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLta2b9zQ64

    3. Not sure how familiar you are with G.K. Chesterton, but your post above and your background story certainly sounded very Chestertonian to me (I mean that as the highest compliment). http://www.chesterton.org/discover-chesterton/who-was-this-guy/

    4. Lastly, I noticed in your “About” section that you enjoy philosophy. Not sure if you’ve heard of him or not, but Peter Kreeft is a stellar Catholic philosopher with all kinds of outstanding (mostly free!) resources (audio talks, articles, etc.) on his webpage: http://www.PeterKreeft.com. He is one of the big reasons I came back to the Catholic Church after exploring both agnosticism and subsequently Protestantism. With only reading a little of your writing and background story I think you’d thoroughly enjoy what he has to offer.

    *Three of my favorite audio talks from Kreeft are:

    a) How to Win the Culture War – http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/01_culture-war.htm

    b) Christ’s Version of Happiness vs. The World’s – https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/happiness/id482067862?i=482068045

    c) A Refutation of Moral Relativism – http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/05_relativism.htm

    **And two short articles that I can’t help but share:

    a) Christianity and the New Paganism – http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/religions_newpaganism.htm

    b) The Uniqueness of Christianity – http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/christianity-uniqueness.htm

    Thanks again for this post, Eric. Keep up the great work, and God bless!

    In Christ,
    Greg Aitchison

    • Hey Greg, I have no idea why your comment was sitting in moderation mode. I have no filters set up so it must be a glitch. Thank you for your comment, excellent links. I’ll do my best to get to them, the Peter Kreeft stuff for sure. Cheers!

      (Btw, I’m a huge Chesterton fan)

    • Thanks, Eric! And no worries about the comment not posting right away. I probably could have had a little more patience as well.

      Peter Kreeft is also (of course) a huge Chesterton fan. He always says, “Not quoting Chesterton is like trying to not eat more chips” (or something like that).

      Thanks again, and keep the good thoughts coming!
      Greg

  114. I really enjoyed this article, and think that the spiritual without religious is sort of like the icing without the cake. Or looking for the orgasm without the human relationship… For those who really want to live life and make it work, it leaves you feeling empty. But I believe it comes out of a great resentment towards religion. As strange as it is… it is very much a part of ‘post modern’ attitudes.

  115. I agree. I HATE the cliche too. ALL establishments have some level of authority, be it church or mosque. As a christian, I know God is a God of order, so to think I can be ‘free of bondage’ is a false cliche. We are all in some sort of strait jacket because we need to be. The leader of my church is Jesus and I can talk to Him whenever I want. However, that does not give me the reins to do,say and act how I want and not feel any consequence for my attitude because “I am spiritual and free”.

  116. Hello Eric

    I have found your post to be interesting in that a lot of people have found the same thing in deeper study. I have been a believer for 58 years and have found that if the truth of the word of God does not get into the persons heart with understand and have a living experience with it then it is dead. The knowledge of God is more than mere words.

    Our hearts have to connect with the heart of God on his terms based upon his word from a repentant heart based upon conviction not just words. It takes the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost to bring us to that place. If we could have done this by ourselves we wouldn’t have needed Christ to come and take our sentence of death upon the Cross and be our propitiation or substitute.

    The words were meant to bring us on a quest meet Christ the person the living Word of God. Jesus in his day said many things most of which were very profound in the sense that the natural mind or nonspiritual minded person can not understand the things of God because they must be spiritually enlightened.

    Most studies on the Word of God are from a theological basis or theory about the Word of God and lack the true enlightenment to be able to convey truth in it purity because they are unrenewed men or men with out the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them.

    The Words of Jesus the Christ speaking to the Religious teachers and leaders of His day: “You search the scriptures, for in them you think you will find eternal life but you don’t come to me.” The word of God itself is just knowledge until it is given light to or untli the person seeking has the ability to see the truth in its purity untainted and undefiled.

    God uses symbols, shadow and types to speak to his people this is why they in their day couldn’t figure it out. They were mere men who had not repented of their ungodly ways. Key scriptural verse to this is 2 Chronicles 7:14-16. That must be done first to be able to see. Look at John 3:16-20.

    The one who does that enlightening is the Holy Spirit. In Ephesians he is called the Spirit of Wisdom and Revelation. In the Old Testament he was called the presence of God on earth. He was the one who enlighten the prophets and scribes eyes to see so they could write down the things that were conveyed from heaven. With out him we are all most miserable men.

    God the Father is not on earth and neither is Jesus Christ. But the Holy Spirit is of whom Jesus spoke often about during his ministry in the Gospel of John especially John chapters 14 through 16.

    Knowledge in itself is nothing unless it is proven true through experimenting or experience. I believe you would agree with me there. There must be some substance that comes out of knowledge for it to mean something to us.

    I came to a very true and real experience with God that kind of experience that brings the word of God alive in me. As it was in the beginning so it is through Christ today.

    My only question to you is this: Did you ever find the Living Christ the one that is spoken of in Revelations Chapter One the one that John the Apostle saw face to face? If you did not then you are missing the true essence of true spirituality and religion.

    True Believer

    • I thought I was done with this thread having been thoroughly entertained by this rather lengthy overhaul of people’s beliefs. It has sparked a lot of good debate. But The comment above by ‘Anonymous’ is just awesome! How can you argue with Truth? I agree! Thanks for bringing joy to my day, all of you!

  117. I have never used the phrase, “I am spiritual not religious.” However, a slight twist of the phrase “I am not religious but a Christian.” Religion is nothing more than a set of manmade rules or behaviors to gain favor with a supreme being otherwise known as God. A Christian is the exact opposite. It is God who first reached out to man through Jesus and redeemed us to Himself. Therefore, true Christianity is that God so loved the world that He gave His only Son and we have eternal life through Him. John 3:16. It is grace based (unmerited favor from God) While, religion says that one must earn one’s own salvation through works. Therefore, I am not religious but a Christian.

    • Well said my friend. I too believe that religion is made-up by the world and is not a part of Christian integrity.
      Self agenda is the origin of all religions and are not a part of the inspirations form God as to how those in the world is required to go about serving Him. Be bless and stay strong.

    • Apostle
      I believe the world gets it backwards. The world tells us that we have do things or follow religious standards to earn our salvation but the Scriptures prove this to be untrue. As Christians, we first believe in Christ and become in right standing or righteous through grace then our works should follow after the conversion. It is not the other way around. After we are transformed into the image of Jesus, then our actions should line up with our faith and our works will be evident.
      See James 2:14-26: “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
      But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.”

  118. ‘These phrases are almost always accompanied by a corresponding lifestyle where the rules are made up as you go and all things are ultimately justifiable in the light of “personal revelation.”’
    All I can think of is Calvinball, where he and his tiger Hobbes make up and revise the rules of their game as they go along. It is amazing how differently various people…even on this comment thread… define ‘spiritual.’ It almost makes me revise your equation to religion=good; spiritual=bad. Scripture tells us God is a spirit, but the modern usage of the term seems to have nothing to do with such a narrow concept.

  119. Btw, one cannot really talk Christianity, at least historically, without at some point talking about dogma and dogmatic theology! And true Christianity will always be connected to the Judeo, i.e. the Judeo-Christian reality. For Jesus was a Jew! And “religion” is just another moniker for spirituality, as too godliness, the latter is at least again Judeo-Christian. 🙂

  120. A long time I coined the phrase “spirit whore” to refer to my choice of respecting all religions and sometimes participate, although I mainly practice Christianity. That said, I’m not a fan of “spiritual not religious” either. It’s like a “keeping up with the Joneses” type thing and those who say it are afraid of being “non-hip.” It also comes across as sounding ashamed or defensive, not proud of where a person is coming from.

  121. I do state that I am not religious. I don’t like religion, but I see why it is needed everytime there is a shooting rampage from an empty vessel. I love Jesus and he warned about “well swept houses.” It is not enough to be exorcised, but you must infill with what is right and good or risk more problems. You cannot be blank, empty. You have to be filled with the work. Most people that say they are spiritual, are hippy skippy and very vague about love and “believe.” Believe what? I believe that I can move a mountain with my faith, that I can do all things through Christ’s strength and teachings. Religion is needed to teach those that need to be taught the truth and there are definate but simple truths about our life.

  122. It is to my knowledge that all religions are more materialistic and is base on self agenda than it is of a spiritual introduction.
    Christianity is not a religion but a matter of salvation…a deliverance from evil…and base on the spirit and reconciliation thereof to the Almighty God as a convert back into the image in which He first created our spirits.
    Humankind lost perfect connection with God when the sins of Adam and Eve committed sin in the garden of Eden.
    Christ was predestine by God to come forth to the world to restore the spiritual connection and perfect unity to the spirits of humankind.
    Therefore it is not a religion nor a matter of self agenda….but a salvation of spirit from the captivity of evil that have put 99% of the world in a type of bondage that can only be lifted by being spiritually Born Again.
    Believing is only the first in that process of reconciliation and rebirth of spirit.
    Christ was not sent to wash away our sins, but to show us the way out of sin that we as Christians can live a victorious life as spiritual beings within the terrestrial bodies of what is call the flesh.
    I agree with the fact you said we are spirit and not religious but the definition thereof is a matter of perspective consideration and not personal agenda of what is call religion.

    Be bless

    • Jack, just out of curiosity, what religious organization gave you the title “apostle,” or did you grant it to yourself? Avoiding “personal agenda” sounds important to you, so it would be ironic if you gave the title to yourself.

  123. OK, now why don’t you tell us how you really feel? You were too subtle. ; – ) THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS! I CAN’T STAND IT WHEN PEOPLE CLAIM THEY’RE SPIRITUAL, NOT RELIGIOUS! It was long overdue. Amen, brother. (and by the way, I’m not spiritual OR religious.)

  124. I am a member of a Church but I have NEVER felt controlled, except by God. I believe Jesus is the truth, the light and the only way to Heaven. Religion or spirituality….it doesn’t matter what you call it. What matters is your personal experiences with our Lord. Thank you for you article.

  125. Hey Eric, I like the general thrust of what you say, but I don’t get why you lump “I follow Jesus” in with “religious” and “spiritual”. I don’t refer to myself as a Christian because it has become a meaningless term, whereas “follower of Jesus” is descriptive. We don’t have to wonder what it means. It precludes
    “a corresponding lifestyle where the rules are made up as you go and all things are ultimately justifiable in the light of “personal revelation.”…a world of Christianity where there is no human authority, save oneself; where millions of individual “popes” abound, but the Church is nonexistent…”
    Thanks

    • “I’m a follower of Jesus” is descriptive only if one is clear about which Jesus they follow. There are 1000’s of different Jesus’ available today in our spiritual stock exchange.

    • What 1000s of Jesus’? There is scant historical reference to Jesus outside of the Judeo-Christian scriptures, other than a few “lost gospels”, and a few later “revelations” such as the Islam & Mormonism, all of which contradict the canonical gospels and apostolic writings. Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say there are 1000s of Christianities? Any religion which centers its theology around Jesus can rightly be called a Christian religion. This would include not only Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant religions, but also Mormonism & Jehovah’s Witnesses. Therefore, I say the heart of the matter is neither religion nor spirituality, but the person of Jesus as He is revealed in the Judeo-Christian scriptures. This Jesus never claimed to establish a new religion called Christianity. He claimed to establish the kingdom of God as prophesied by the Hebrew prophets who came before Him. If you can demonstrate from the scriptures that this was not his central message, then I will personally give you a back massage.

    • I was raised Mormon. We were taught that Jesus was not a Person of the Divine Trinity but rather a literal offspring of Elohim, the Father God. This Jesus was the spiritual brother of Lucifer, later satan. He is our brother in a literal sense in that we too were literally conceived of by Elohim with his many wives in heaven. And Mormons also claim to believe in the Bible you and I both read.

      Is this the Jesus you believe in?

      This is only one example of the various Jesus’ on the market today.

    • Hello Eric:

      This is a very good question and one of which I will try to answer in truth. I have met very many Mormons in my lifetime having been involved in sharing the faith of which I believe to have based upon the Bible and that only.

      Concerning the Mormon faith there I believe are two books that are used. the One is the Bible and the other is the Book of Mormon. of which it is my understanding that Joseph Smith the founder of this religion was involved with.

      But while the Bible is present with the Mormon Church I find the interpretation as it pertains to the Bible some what flawed. There are so many contradictions as it pertains to God and Jesus that don’t align themselves to the original cannon of scripture from the Bible whether your flavor is Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic or English 1611..

      Concerning multiple wives I find no evidence from Scripture. But I do find that in Creation the Lord creates the family using one male and one female. While I will not try to debate this subject because I have little to base any reasonable conclusion other than what the Bible speaks of having one wife in Timothy and in the Epistles as well.

      While it is true that the Sons of Isaac had more than one wife through the use of maid servants due to certain cultural beliefs, there is no authorization given to us by God himself concerning this matter.

      The word of God says one thing that makes sense to me referring to the following passages:

      Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. (Mat_22:28 KJV)

      In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife. (Mar_12:23 KJV)

      Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife. (Luk_20:33 KJV)

      I would strongly read these verses of scripture in context and mediate upon them for deeper understanding. However ….

      The Lord responds to these inquiries with this answer: “Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. (Mat 22:28-30 KJV)”

      There seems to be this mystery then about God is he married or not. It is my understanding having spent years of genuine study of the Word of God to resolve myself to this statement given to us by God himself and that is:

      “The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deuteronomy 29:29 KJV)”

      We were created in the image and likeness of God himself so my belief is this that if God had multiple wives than why didn’t he give Adam more than one. Instead he gave Adam one wife. The Old Testament law prescribes one wife also. So with no real basis to put my faith in I must conclude that we are to have one wife and that God is not married as some think. God gave Adam a help meet not meets.

      I find personally that debates are so often started because of opinions rather then truth so I will usually stay away from such babbling because they are endless and a source of strife and contentions..

      The Jesus I believe in as described in scripture is this: John 1:1-5, John Chapter 6, Revelations Chapter 1, every reference to his coming from the Old Testament, Acts Chapter One in his ascension John Chapter 20 in his resurrection. Everything the Bible says about Jesus and who he is is what I believe.

      Before Jesus came he was the Word of God that became flesh and dwelt among us. The name given to him was Jesus which being interpreted Savior, Deliverer, Redeemer and God incarnate.

      I hope and pray this has answered your question satisfactorily.

      Dean

    • Thanks Eric. I can’t imagine how you are keeping up with these replies. Here’s my response in case you have the time:
      This is my point – there aren’t that many possibilities; only the few that I mentioned. Of course I refer to the Jesus of the Judeo-Christian scriptures. To say I follow him is, in fact, descriptive. The Bible presents a linear, unfolding, harmonious revelation. The Jesus revealed therein is alive and well and knowable. The Jesus of Islam, Mormonism, & the Jehovah’s Witnesses re-interprets & contradicts the Bible with later “revelation” that is considered authoritative within those group. But when I say I’m a follower of Jesus, it is assumed I’m referring to the Jesus of the Bible. Therefore this phrase has much more meaning and clarity than to say I’m a Christian.

    • My point is a little more nuanced, and is difficult to explain briefly. But, in short, we all come to the text with our own set of ideas, opinions, social conditioning, etc (“presupposition” is a good single word to use here), that influence the way we understand who Jesus is. If you are familiar with the ancient heresy of Arianism, it was a belief that Jesus was created by the Father God. This caused enormous turmoil in the Church and divided it for many years. Arius made his argument strictly from Scripture, as did his Orthodox opponents. Eventually Orthodoxy won out and declared that Jesus was a Person within the divine Trinity and was “begotten” of God eternally. One understands Trinitarian theology due to the great Ecumenical councils, not because of a casual reading of Scripture.

      Whether or not Christ is a created being, if God is Trinity, if the Holy Spirit is God, etc, etc, are issues that can go either way if one does not have the luxury of holy tradition guiding him. I imagine that you have gravitated towards the orthodox rendering of the faith, but this is not happen-chance, it comes from a long line of reasoning within the Church. It only seems like a “no-duh” to us because we are so use to it.

    • Thanks for the thoughtful reply Eric.
      I’m open to being proven wrong here, but until then I will say that I absolutely disagree that:
      1) Arius made his argument strictly from Scripture
      2) One understands Trinitarian theology due to the great Ecumenical councils
      3) …issues [that] can go either way if one does not have the luxury of holy tradition guiding him.

      1-Arius wasn’t making his argument “strictly from scripture” because nowhere do the scriptures say that Jesus is a created being, and in many places it says He is divine.
      2-It is the authority of the Judeo-Christian scriptures that reveals the triune nature of YHWH. The ecumenical councils were only codifying what had already been revealed in the Bible. To say that…
      3-…these issues can go either way w/out tradition is false. You’re essentially saying that the councils created Truth if you think these issues could have gone either way. The councils functioned as a Supreme Court interpreting a constitution that was already written. But the constitution existed first, and is preeminent. Likewise, the Bishop’s interpretations are valid only insofar as they agree with God’s written revelation, which has ultimate authority. So Church tradition is of value, but even the early councils contain errors. It is the Word that judges tradition, not tradition that judges the Word.
      Btw – congrats on getting out of Mormonism!

  126. Sri Sri compares religion to skin of the banana and spirituality to the actual fruit inside. Most of the times we get entangled with the skin failing to relish the essence.

  127. This is a terrifically engaging post. Still, the comments are even more intriguing. It is amazing that we live in a country that has more churches than any other country in the world and most of us still do not know the difference between religion and spirituality.

    I do not pretend to be a know-it-all, but as I understand it. Religion is a collection of belief systems. One is free to choose whether one wants to be Hindu or something else.

  128. To write, “The next time you hear the phrase, or, God forbid, say the phrase, remember that it has no meaning whatsoever. It is perhaps one of the emptiest phrases ever developed in the English language.” displays the mis-understanding and possibly fear associated with not belonging to a man made cult that professes its origin in some divine entity. The fear of one individual human actually undertaking a unique self fulfilling spiritual journey alone to face unknown terrors and go against cultural and community paved paths is often seen as impossible.

    We as humans often find our selves criticizing uniqueness and the display of strength by individuals who are not political party flag waivers or cross bearing lip flapping religious holy than though artists,

    because the phrase is very simple to say it is said rather than to have to sit and hold someones hand and explain the realness behind it. This explanation may take years for some. In its catch all meaning it is a phrase that describes a very unique state of being in an individual.

    cbardouille.wordpress.com

    • Perhaps, or its a fear of “the other” and/or “fear of intimacy.” There is nothing particularly challenging in branching out on one’s own spiritual path in a society like ours which praises radical individualism and not “cultural and community paved paths”.

  129. If you assume that being spiritual means to believe in a deity, then you are right. But spirituality has many layers and it differs from one person to another. I, personally, claim I am spiritual but not religious and I will tell you why. Religion is man-made and it imposes people how to believe and in what to believe, without explaining why. It implies to follow a holly book and so on. I don’t do that and I won’t explain here why because I don’t want to offend religious people. But I am spiritual meaning I believe in things like destiny, reincarnation or positive and negative energies. I came to believe in them in time, after certain experiences so this made me spiritual. Each person is unique and their spirituality is unique also. We all need to believe in something. Some choose God, some choose Allah, some choose a tree in their back yard. As long as we feel comfort in the spirituality we choose and harm no one, we should be free to believe in whatever we want.

    • “Religion is man-made and it imposes people how to believe and in what to believe, without explaining why…”

      Lavinia, if this is your experience with religion then I totally understand your point. My experience in the Eastern Orthodox Church is anything but, “do this and don’t ask why.” Rather, there is a continual stream of explanation not just in formal study but in the very act of liturgical worship.

      Your point about religion being man-made, is this not true with personal “spiritualism”? I’ve made this point to others on this thread, but isn’t the individual also “man” and his or her spiritual belief and practice therefore “man-made”? I find it difficult to remove the human element in spirituality and religion for the simple reason that we are human.

    • Individual spirituality is built on each person’s experiences, needs and personality. The center of spirituality is not a god, like in religion. Religion is addressed to a mass of people while individual spirituality is custom made. Individual spirituality is personal and intimate while religion is to be shared with others. Spiritual people accept all kinds of beliefs while religious people reject any beliefs if they can’t give them a religious meaning. Religion is not the beginning nor the end and religion doesn’t exist in everything 🙂 I find spirituality and religion different like North and South, the only thing they seem to have in common, in my opinion, is the need to believe in something. From this point on, these two concepts go on two separate ways.

    • Fair enough. I see religion and spirituality not as polar opposites, i.e. “north and south,” but rather as a circle and line. What is more opposite than a circle and line? True, until the circle is a wheel and the line is a road, then suddenly they work in perfect unison. One can have spirituality without religion (in the version you present), and one can also have a wheel without a road, but its a shit ride. And, granted a particular road may take you in the wrong direction, but one shouldn’t blame that on “roads” in general, but rather one’s choice of roads.

      Are you sick of the analogy yet? 🙂

      I enjoy your thoughts, Lavinia. Cheers.

    • Great analogy, I must admit. It makes sense when you put it like this. Probably it is a matter of perspective. In fact, one thing can lead to another, either we ( or I ) see the connection or not. I enjoyed your thoughts also 🙂

    • Bravo! As best as I can tell, those who claim they are ‘spiritual but not religious’ are perhaps more man-made than the religious.
      Christianity, at least, claims it is NOT man-made even though some bring it back to a man-made system of works.

  130. I think this is a reaction to the unfortunate reality that most American churches have lost touch with the Holy Spirit. If you can walk into a church service/mass and walk out untouched by God’s presence then something is terribly wrong. People feel more of God’s peace looking at a sunset, the ocean, or the stars than they do during a “worship” service in church. They want something real and they are entitled to expect it. We need to hear the heart cry underneath the language…people are hungry for God and can’t find him in church. That’s why Jesus was such a big hit…contrary to the religious leaders of his day, he brought the reality of God’s love and power to the people…they were desperate and hungry for Him, just like they are now…

    • I would argue that the reason most people aren’t finding the Holy Spirit in church is because what they are calling “church” is often just a business, I mean, church that some self-informed, know it all, who read the Bible, decided to open in order to preach his version of the Word. It takes more than a music team, ushers, parking attendants and preacher to make the Church (can you tell I’m reflecting on my own church experience in Evangelicalism?). The Church is the mystery of union with Christ. It is both a spiritual and a physical phenomenon that happens at baptism and the Eucharist.

  131. Well, as a person who claim to be spiritual but not religious, I feel the need to step in and rectify a few things. First, when I say that I am spiritual but not religious; I’m not judging you or anybody who thinks differently than me. I am reflecting on my own personal journey.

    In a casual discussion, I would also clarify what it means to me. I do believe that most religious persons are spiritual which mean that they are capable of having a critical approach towards their own church. They choose to stay within the group. Personally, I simply choose differently; I choose to reconsider and, only then, to reconnect with the belief of one part of my ancestors who happened to be Native Americans/Canadians. Their belief is a lot more respectful of others, their believes, their rights to be different; of our lands, our sources of water and, overall, our environment.

    To me, religion is the junction between spiritual and politics, where free will turns into dogma, where belief turns too often a crime if you have the misfortune of thinking differently than your religious leader, where you feel the need to burn someone else’s Holy book to believe that yours is better.

    I was born and raised as a Christian. Do I believe in the value of Jesus Christ’s message? Probably more than those of His so-called disciples who choose to point the finger at the others who are different, who choose to condemn instead of listening and understanding. You do not need to agree or approve (this message or any other statement made by a spiritual person); we only ask you to listen quietly (without being on the defensive and preparing your next argument), understand that someone can have a different opinion and respect their choice.

    I am a swimmer and I know we have to get wet to be able to swim. I know I would rather swim in a pool instead of a lake or the ocean. I also know my limits. However, I will reuse your metaphor. To be spiritual is to be able to swim on your own, without having someone’s of the pull who is constantly screaming. I know when I am swimming, I am on my own; same thing when a spiritual person is talking to God. The person screaming on the side is just not aware of the fact that the swimmer can barely hear him or her, he can barely decode any lengthy message. This person perceive himself or herself with the highest altar of ego that the human kind can come across. Instead of teaching others how to swim on their own; they like to build the insecure that will push them to come back and see them as a vital intermediate between them and their ability to swim.

    I leave you with something to think about… Look around you, look around the world, go back in history, and tell me how many wars have been initiated by a true spiritual person and how many have made in the name of religion? Before you even think of justifying any of these wars, stating that religion is a legitimate cause of war, tell how can you possibly make it fit into God’s mouth?

    To conclude, before you go out witch hunting again, take a look in a mirror and ask yourself how many did you give hope, did you contribute to peace, did you offer your hand to help the other, how many time you stood up to defend diversity or the freedom of speech. Maybe you don’t believe in it; if this is the case, how can you so certain that what you claim to be God’s words are not simply the ones that you like to hear and perpetuate?

    • Rolland, I love, love, love your swimming analogy and wish I had thought of it first. I experienced the same thing when running track. I had the loudest mouthed coached you’ve ever heard, yet no matter how loud he shouted at me to “pick it up, Hyde!” during a race, I could barely hear him and it wouldn’t have mattered anyway since I had already “picked it up” when the gun went off, and had no more to give.

      In response to your overall point, my experience with church in the independent Evangelical movement was quite similar to the kind you describe. Somewhere along the way I lost total trust in my own ability to decifer the truth. I went to a private Christian college to study theology and was exposed to all walks of life in the Christian paradigm among my professors – Lutherans, Calvinists, Catholics, Pentecostals, etc. The experience taught me that even if you attain a PhD in theology and dedicate your whole life in the pursuit you will wind up disagreeing with the PhD whose office is next to yours. This shattered my hopes of “figuring” it all out on my own. I realized that I have built in mental filters from years of conditioning that prevented me from coming to the truth via my own experience and “brilliance”.

      I know you may not accept this, but the New Testament, contrary to many Protestants you may hear from, declares the Church to be the ground and pillar of truth (1Tim 3:15), not Joe Blow preacher who “got a word from Jesus” last night over dinner. I took a long look at the historic Church and discovered that it was still around – the Eastern Orthodox Church (as its usually called in America).

      In short, I don’t pretend to create the truth of God as it occurs to me, rather I receive the truth as it has been given to the Church for the last 20 centuries. God wasn’t waiting for me to come around and figure out the Christian faith so that I could inform everyone else, as so many today seem to think their “calling” to be.

      I appreciate what you said and believe you are speaking from your heart on the matter. Cheers.

  132. Eric, thank you so much for sharing on this topic. I’ve seen that you’ve gotten quite the response in the comments, which is also great to read. There is truth in what you say, and also in the comments that have been inspired by your words. I’m grateful that I’ve come across this post, as I have said that phrase in the past many times. I guess alot of what I say, is said with a lack of understanding and revelation. You’ve most definitely stretched my mind into new thinking.

    “They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.” (John 16:2)

    Something that I’ve become aware of in my own life, is to be careful of not doing or following a way of belief or instruction, and feel that I’m doing it for the good of others, or myself, or God, when in fact my act is completely off the perfect will of God, yet is being done under His name.

    As was said earlier, Religion means ‘control’, and Spiritual means ‘freedom’. With regards to being born again into a relationship with our Heavenly Father, both of these apply. As we surrender ourselves, and die to the flesh, we ask for God to guide us through His Holy Spirit. This could be seen as a form of control, as we are set free from sin, and become slaves to righteousness (Romans 6:18) We also become spiritual, as it is for freedom that Christ has set us free. (Galatians 5:1)

    I will no longer say that phrase, as my understanding has now grown. Be blessed brother : )

  133. Interesting point of view… Personally, I see it a bit differently. Spiritual = I am the source of wisdom, I am the one who discovered the truth. So, it is more individualistic and me-myself-and-I-oriented. Religious – seems like a more humble approach, following some tradition and trying to listen vs teach others. Not bad or wrong here I guess, all depends on the values that currently are “trendy”. And we do live in very individualistic society…

  134. Your post was good and very well written. I totally disagree however, like most people that believe there is only one path you wrote a great post. Religion is just a dogma that has rules and is meant to keep human kind in darkness. Spirituality has rules and traditions. You just have not taken the time to discover it. I am proud to say I am spiritual open to all the wonders of the universe. I am not religious and don’t ever want to be chained to a book and a promise.

  135. I agree with you to an extent…both religion and spirituality are getting a bad name…they’re appear to be millions of hypocrites on both sides. I tend to look up at the sky and see a million stars, and my gut and heart both tell me there is a God. Even Einstein proved it with ‘for every action there is a reaction’ and vice versa theory. Something intelligent and mighty had to start it all. So really who cares. We are humans with little humanity, we’re the stupidist species on the planet, the ONLY one who destroys his own habitat, and basically, if it weren’t for Jesus setting such a wonderful example, we’d all be lost. People battle and kill all the time in the name of their religion and their god, so religion is not for me, but yes I am very spiritual. I pray to my Lord daily, sometimes hourly, and He takes care of me each second. Jesus taught PEACE and LOVE, about the Father, the son and the HOLY SPIRIT!! so yes, I’m spiritual and I’m stickin to that! and may God Bless You and Yours and have a wonderfully SPIRITUAL MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!

  136. AAaaahhhh!!!! Religion & Spritualism,the greatest fraud & corruption on humanity by the charletans who purvey this load of “ol croc”. Learn to have faith in yourself & stop deluding yourself that there is more to life than there really is.I read some of the aforementioned rhetoric & dogma & undertstand why the world is in the mess its in….Common sense,where has it gone ? the cargo cult mentality is alive & well as most of you push each other further closer to the abyss.The amusing thing is that many of you profess to be “well educated” :-))) Its as though you desire to be manipulated

  137. Based on your previous comments,I now realise you could not have said anything else…you seem to have nothing more intelligent to say than to denegrate those with an opposing point of view. Your thoughtless comment that Capitalism is a greater fraud & corruption than Religion demands why you think it does ?

    • Eric,you are a greater “joker” than you realise. I assume you are an american which is a distinct impediment to any rational debate on religious bigotry & charlatanism.,hence your thoughtless “joker” responses. Put a smile on my face & state something factual instead of Waffling on with nowhere to go like so many others on your page desperately seeking explanation or need for their existence.

    • Well, because you seemed to be mocking those who “desperately seek explanation or need for their existence.” And now I’m curious why you believe yours is “more meaningful than most.” I’m actually quite worried about you at this point.

  138. There is no “official” meaning of “spiritual,” even though words generally have agreed-upon meaning in a given culture. “Spiritual” is a hard one, because there isn’t much agreement on it. But, I consider it to be related to the human “spirit,” which requires no supernatural or religious implications.

    Also, broad-sweeping assertions about religion or spirituality are hard to take seriously. It seems “religion” is an ever-increasing sore spot for people, which leads to very blunt assumptions about the extremely varied.

  139. I understand the point you are trying to make, but it seems from a limited perspective. The tone seems one of judgement, some intolerance, and lacking in love. Surely that was not you intention.

    Spirituality is deeper than simply following institutionalized religion. They may aid each other, but are not required of each other. It can be from studied texts and writings from various religious institutions which expand thinking, and when coupled with spiritual practice such as contemplative prayer, can take that expansion to many levels, including the wonder of personal relationship, in and outside institutional religion. Spirituality should not be imprisoned in dogma or doctrine of a specific religious institution.

    If one is guided to participate in the church community, that is wonderful, but it is not the criteria for authenticity of spirituality.

    The fact that some people feel embalmed by the dictates of religion, and here I mean institutional religion, does not mean they are any less in relation with their God, or Higher Power, or Creative Source, than anyone else. The witness is always based on Love. Is that the manifestation of the person saying they are “spiritual”?

    It also presumes that the individual is guided by Spirit, discerns the S/spirit behind actions and statements. The best way to know what a person means by “spiritual” is their lives. However, we know that we are not to judge. Judgment tends to bring a heap more judgment on ourselves.

    If anyone has a moral superiority in their religion or spirituality, they may have a long journey ahead of them that books cannot teach with understanding. Surely the lessons will come if one is open to the purifications we all need. They are blessings which fill the vessel with Love.

    The best way to relate to a “spiritual” person is with the Love we have received, and to accept they are on a journey, as we all are. Trust in God to know what each individual needs and to supply it. We don’t need to cause a detour by our own judgments.

    • Thank you for your thoughtful post, Suzanne. I’m curious about this: “Spirituality should not be imprisoned in dogma or doctrine of a specific religious institution.” I wonder why you believe dogma and doctrine to be a prison. You have made a number of statements that easily pass for doctrine, indeed looking back over your post, nearly everything you said was said dogmatically (I mean that in a good way, after all I am in favor of doctrine and dogma).

      How does your personally held doctrines and dogmas of spirituality and religion differ from “institutional” religious doctrine and dogma?

    • Eric, I was responding to your opinion, but did not claim to be free of the influences of doctrine or dogma.

      I have learned to see that there are many ways in which people are guided through spirituality of many different forms. Some of these put religious to shame.

      I don’t want to get into criticisms of churches. Most people know the problems. I do wish to elevate the faith communities of all religions, which may be the heart of the institutions.

      melanielynngriffin’s comment is beautifully put from a Christian perspective.

      “Jesus was more concerned about cleaning the inside of the cup than the outside. I’m concerned about personal transformation, leading to changes in outward behavior, not about rules & regs, per se. Jesus didn’t come to found a religion, he came that we might have life to the full and be free to become who we were intended to be. Since each of us is unique, it’s up to the Holy Spirit to get us there,”

      I think that while doctrine and dogma may be specific to some religious institutions and not others, spirituality can move freely from Spirit to soul, without prejudice as to the indoctrination they might have received at some point in their lives, or not.

    • In short, you use your standard of dogma and doctrine as you see fit. My point is that you use them because you cannot do otherwise. To not have a set of dogmatic assertions concerning ones spirituality is to have no spirituality at all – its simply “flighty emotionalism without a core.” My article is not so much a commentary on spirituality or religion as much as it is a commentary on using “spirituality” as a tool of thoughtless superiority over undefined “religion.”

    • OK, Eric, you can’t help yourself at judging others. Perhaps one day you will understand what I am saying. I trust Spirit will help you with that. Love and peace to you!

    • How did you take what I said as judgmental? I feel that I have understood you perfectly, but I fear you have not understood me at all. It’s not a bad thing that you use a set of dogmas and doctrines, its a good thing, I’m only trying to help you see that your path differs very little from those involved with a recognized religion in this respect. I worry that your instinct to drop the “judgmental card” on those who disagree with you will prevent you from hearing opinions you may benefit from.

      Cheers.

    • Spirituality devoid of a relationship with the one true God through Jesus Christ or, in other words, religious devotion to the Christian God is, as stated in the article, empty. That is not judgemental. That is simply the Christian faith expressed.

    • Mattimuck..”the one true god” 🙂 What about the other nine thousand nine hundred & ninety nine man made gods hardly referred to here :-),or dont they count 🙂

    • Eric,I Obviously dont believe in any god,Im stronger & more confident than the need dictates. The false promises over the centuries should convince even the most unfortunate simpleton that they have been let down miserabley. Why so many continue with the fraud is bewildering when its so easy to find peace & contentment from within,For most that is a task too difficult when so many milions of scurrilous ratbags are on the bandwagon promising everything beyond all reasonable sense of belief. Its madness…Eric…Im still waiting on you stating something worth consuming….C’mon…let it out 🙂 No waffling please

    • Why blame someone for not including the other 9999 when you’re not willing to include any of them?

      Tony, I’d be happy to debate you on any of my articles dealing with atheism. You may find a couple of them worth your while, but this article is not oriented that way. I appreciate you’re lively posts, but thus far in over 300 replies no one has become uncivil. Please don’t spoil the fun.

      Have a good night.

    • that was stated beautifully. I truly feel if we could stop judging long enough to realize we all have problems, we could all begin to cooperate and mostly, just love! and yes, I wear rose colored glasses! lol

  140. I appreciate your thought-provoking post. I, too, am annoyed by the “spiritual but not religious” phrase, because of the judgment contained in it. Since re-legion basically means to “reconnect,” what’s not to like?
    However, I’m not a big fan of dogma and doctrine, because it seems to me that Jesus was more concerned about cleaning the inside of the cup than the outside. I’m concerned about personal transformation, leading to changes in outward behavior, not about rules & regs, per se. Jesus didn’t come to found a religion, he came that we might have life to the full and be free to become who we were intended to be. Since each of us is unique, it’s up to the Holy Spirit to get us there, I think. My two cents. thanks again, and congrats on being Freshly Pressed. I’m always excited when spiritual/religious/Christian WHATEVER people are tagged. Blessings – Merry Christmas

  141. Truly… spiritual arrogance is how you term those who claim to have this deep connection with the divine with the absence of religion. The two were never mutually exclusive.

    • says history, says experience, says the natural order of the cosmos. It’s just baffling how people equate religion to something so worldly and shallow. The two are separate entities but are expected to go together.

    • In the best possible circumstance, I agree. But can you deny what pain religion has caused humanity? In the name of our perfect Creator, “witches” have been burned, Christ was crucified, the Towers decimated. If religion grants “specialness” to one group, it separates. And that is NOT of God. If you can re-read the above blog with a completely open mind, you will see the obvious distain this Christian woman has for people who chose a different path to God. What business is it of hers how other people celebrate the Almighty?

      I apologize for my quip. I was ticked. Happy New Year to you.

    • Alright, on to the concessions: First, nothing is perfect in this plane… not even religion. Indeed, even to the present many utilize dogmas to advance personal or political agendas; no wonder organized beliefs divide instead of unite. Second, it is faith/personal relationship to your God which is the basis of one’s spirituality— no argument with that.

      Point being, which I believe was also claimed by the blogger, is that religion is a tool to attain some level of spirituality. You need somehow to begin somewhere in your quest to be one with the divine, and religion does the job. Good for the people who attained Nirvana or Moksha or however they call it without the aid of religion but for the average struggling person living in this harsh world who wants to have something to anchor on his beliefs, his sanity, his soul— this is the very purpose why religion is created.

      Yes, I do not have any spiritual ascendancy to assume and conclude the ultimate truth on this matter, but I do realize your take on this… and to debate on who is right at the end of the day would be pointless.

      Happy Holidays!

  142. I should not be surprised at the narrow perspective, but I am.
    I do get wet when I swim, yet I have the temerity to claim to be spiritual without being religious. The converse of spiritual is corporeal, not religious. Spirituality is having a conscious existence and awareness outside of the body. Religion is simply following dogma. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but they can and do exist independently.

    The narrowness of perspective I refer to is the original author’s religious position, and the overwhelming majority of respondents having the same baseline of some sort of faith. It can’t be anything but religious if it’s faith-based (no respondents have any personal knowledge of the religions’ founders, so it must be from religious instruction or dogma) but they may or may not be spiritual.

    No of these factors presuppose “goodness” or “badness” – that’s a matter of an individual’s value systems which may or may not be derived from religious dogma.

    I personally claim to be good (by my own and my society’s standards), spiritual (that’s mine alone), and totally irreligious. I go a step further to claim that all religions have an inherent flaw that makes them as dangerous as standing armies and banking institutions (apologies to Thomas Jefferson for the paraphrase).

    Take what comfort you may from your personal faith, but when you start organising as a religion I become wary. All the major evil events in human history have some religious element, even when faith is not a component. As examples I offer nazism, fascism and communism as religions that are not faith-based in the usually accepted sense of that term.

    • I would say one can have religion (formal teaching and practice) without spirituality (internal engagement), but one is hard pressed to have spirituality without religion, for reasons already mentioned many times in this thread.

      “All the major evil events in human history have some religious element, even when faith is not a component.”

      Perhaps because every event in human history involves humans, and humans are religious creators through and through. But, how is it you link communism with religion? Take a specific example of a communist movement – the Bolsheviks. This was a strictly militant atheist revolution whose first victims were the Russian Orthodox Christians, to the tune of 30 to 50 million slaughtered. How’s that a religious evil?

  143. ” I appreciate you’re lively posts, but thus far in over 300 replies no one has become uncivil. Please don’t spoil the fun.”
    By George, I think you’ve got it!
    As I have stumbled through the hundreds of comments, disagreeing strongly with some, feeling sad for others, and applauding a few, I realize that the majority were devoid of the negative adjectives that express the writer’s judgmental attitude towards others…one group…lots of groups…or the entire world except himself (or herself if gender neutrality is expected…the writer in me still struggles with what pronoun to use here)..

  144. I cringed everytime I heard that phrase said in churches and fellowships. It did sound like spiritual pride like you said. I always say there is a thin line between testifying and boasting. Now,this is what I think of the phrase. There are many people within religious groups who merely follow its rules and regulations without understanding what they actually mean. I think that spirituality is a part of religion. What I believe is simple, do what you do not just because it is expected but because you understand why you are doing it. I am a Christian and one of my favourite scripture verses is Nehemiah 8:12.
    I also believe that sometimes it’s a question of understanding of the terms but more than often,it’s just pride and ignorance talking but who are we to judge?

  145. Above all else I have found this discussion to be humbling and calls me to a deeper level of hearing and acting. I wish to be proactive in extending invitation to all to enter into a connected relationship in which we can connect and share “some spiritual gift” which will be mutually beneficial.

  146. Wow. You sure got a lot of comments on this. 🙂 I bet you have your hands full responding to everything. I have recently taken to not calling myself a Christian because so many people do but they seem to trust in the religion to save them. I don’t believe any religion has the power to save. Only Jesus and His sacrifice that He made for all of us.

    Even apostlistic religion does not save in my view. It is something that many wish to do to please God. But only faith in Jesus as the Messiah can save you.

    What do you think of this?

    • I actually agree with everything you said. The question is, what does one mean by “faith”? The Orthodox understand faith as a complete devotion of one’s being, loving God with all his “mind, will, soul and strength.” One must also “worship in spirit and in truth,” and what is spiritual worship? Among other things it is, according to the Apostle Paul, “presenting your body as a living sacrifice, holy and well pleasing to God, which is your spiritual worship” (Rom 12:1).

      The Church is Christ’s body and one must be grafted into His body to be truly united with Him. This is accomplished by faith, yes, and Jesus gave us the mystery of the sacraments to accomplish this in both body and spirit. “Take eat, this IS my body broken for you… take drink, this IS my blood of the new covenant shed for you.”

      That’s the shortest version I’ve got. 🙂

  147. Eric, there is no need to worry about me. Since you don’t know my history, my associations, my background, or spiritual relationships, you make assumptions that are erroneous. You judge without facts or knowledge, using your assumptions. That is not a very good way of having a dialogue. This is not a courtroom, nor the Inquisition.

    • Suzanne, I know that you have learned to discover beauty and love through art. I know that your art is intuitive and that you’re damn good at it. I also know that you are learning to adapt your intuitiveness to traditional forms of art.

      This is almost a perfect reflection of my “spiritual” experience in independent, isolated Evangelicalism before coming to the historic Christian faith where the true spirit of Christianity has been alive and well for 20 centuries. This article is just a teeny piece of that journey.

      I’m actually very glad to have met you, even if you typecast me as a judgmental religious person (indeed, a judgment on your part). I wish you the best.

  148. Gosh – what a discussion following a thought-provoking post. Thank you.
    I think I use the terms “religion” (the practices we follow) and “spirituality” (what inspires our heart and mind) a little differently. If I may use an analogy: “religion” in our life is like bones to the body in that they give it shape but bones on their own are merely a skeleton – of curiosity value, perhaps. “Spirituality” is like the flesh, alive, and gives the body movement. You can have a body without bones but moving around and communicating is more difficult (but not impossible). Whenever we express our spirituality we use some kind of religion – even a disorganised one, maybe.
    The conversation could go on and on…
    I guess what most of us are trying to get to grips with, is about getting what we believe, feel, say and do to act in concert – to integrate them into a whole. Personally, much as I may aspire to that, I need the help of God and of his people just to make a start on that.
    Peace be with you.

    • Its a good analogy, and its a shame that so many people want to throw away the bones 🙂 But, I get it. Many have been stung by this church or that church, but I believe just as many get stung by isolated spirituality, they just don’t realize it because they are the one’s stinging themselves by cutting themselves off from community. We are communal beings fashioned by a communal God.

  149. Eric – I find everyone’s spiritual journey beautiful, including your own, and I’m happy that you’ve found a path that fulfills your soul. However, I don’t think your personal path should be the standard for everyone’s path. I was a Christian for 15yrs. I studied Theology alongside you, in the same classrooms, under the same professors. But my spiritual journey resulted in quite the opposite outcome. I’m no longer a Christian, but I still seek Truth. Some, like myself, don’t find peace and fulfillment within organized religion and, instead, choose to seek God in other ways. It’s not a “better” or “worse” path…it’s just different.

    We call ourselves “spiritual” as a way to communicate to others that, while we don’t subscribe to one particular religion, we still truly seek a higher power. In fact, one reason why I don’t follow an organized religion is illustrated in your post: it’s closed to other ways of thinking. You believe that someone like me is going to hell or, at the very least, has been “led astray” or is “misguided”. Thus, not sharing your personal convictions results in a “lesser than” attitude toward my own spiritual journey. It’s that superiority complex that exists in religion that repels people like me. It’s not about making our own rules, or being undisciplined. It’s about being open and free to allow God to reveal Himself/Herself to us in everything. Just as Moses experienced. As David experienced. As all those whom you follow as examples, they found the Truth outside of the society’s organized religions of the time.

    Apologies for a long, soapbox post. But I wanted to add an ounce of clarity to your perspective and hopefully help you see that being “spiritual” is just as beautiful as being “Christian”. Wishing you peace and love in your continued journey.

    • Mystery ex-fellow-classmate, thank you for your post.

      I don’t believe I explicitly or implicitly implied that my path was the standard for everyone, that would be absurd and would completely destroy any idea of “the individual.” I am a raving existentialist, such a thought would run counter to the very fiber of my soul.

      I think you have my argument backwards. I’m am not claiming that those who claim to be spiritual lack religion, I’m saying they create their own. They follow their own dogma rather than established dogma and then often claim that the established dogmas are man-made. My argument is that the person claiming such things is himself a “man,” thus following oneself is in fact following yet another set of man-made dogma. My point is, what is it that makes the individual man-made religion superior in spirituality to the spirituality of the man-made religion of a particular community? (though, historic Christianity does not claim to be man-made, but for the sake of argument…)

      “One reason why I don’t follow an organized religion is illustrated in your post: it’s closed to other ways of thinking.” And is your spirituality open to other ways of thinking, or is the rejection of Christianity barred from inclusion in considerations of closed-mindedness?

      You end with: “spiritual” is just as beautiful as being “Christian”. This implicitly says that the two are mutually exclusive. Is this what you meant to say, or am I reading you wrong?

  150. Apologies if I got your argument backwards…I think my perception was very much impacted by this statement: “I have found the phrase, “I am spiritual, not religious,” and its redheaded stepchild, “I follow Jesus, not tradition,” to be manifestations of spiritual pride, not spiritual enlightenment.”

    I read that phrase to mean that my spiritual journey, and my explanation of it, is deemed prideful to you and lacking enlightenment. But your entire post assigns one meaning to “spiritual” and then proceeds to tear it down, building an effigy made of your own perceptions for the purpose of tearing it down to prove your point.

    My reason for commenting was to introduce you to someone who considers herself “spiritual” after already exploring organized religion, and to argue that my “spiritual not religious” journey is neither prideful, nor lacking in enlightenment, but instead was chosen through extreme prayer, insight, study and struggle.

    I agree that essentially any method we choose in our pursuit of God (or a higher power, or the Universe, or whatever we choose to call it) is dictated by a largely man-made dogma.

    But the huge difference is: my spiritual dogmas are tailor made for me, designed from my own experiences with God, man, and morality. Whereas, when I was following Christianity, I was following a religion dictated to me by others. That sounds very simplistic, but that method didn’t work for me. It does work for many. Many find comfort in the history of their religion, and many find God through it, but I didn’t. And my point is: that’s ok.

    I do think Christianity is beautiful. I think Islam is beautiful. I think Buddhism is beautiful. And I think spirituality is beautiful. I don’t reject Christianity as a means to finding God, I reject it as MY means for finding God. But I find beauty in anyone’s journey.

    • I’m curious what church affiliation you were a part of?

      Btw, I have a fairly well evidenced theory that ORU’s theology department accepts mostly Word of Faith, Pentecostal, independent, Evangelical types and graduates mostly Roman Catholic, Anglican, Orthodox or agnostic types.

    • I came to ORU from Assemblies of God. And it’s interesting, I’ve noticed the same trend. I wonder what that says about the Theology Dept? Sidenote: I do miss the deep theological discussions. I still find it enjoyable to hash out the hard questions.

    • I think it says that the theology department is doing its job 🙂

      Ohhh, do I miss the discussions. If just I knew then what I know now they would have been so much more fun.

  151. I wanted to drop a note of thanks to everyone who has posted. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed reading through them and my apologies to those I was unable to answer personally. Hundreds posted in a span of a couple days and there was no way to keep up.

    Thanks again, Cheers!

  152. I wonder frequently if those who claim spirituality over religion, just prefer the sensationalism of experience over faith and fact and reason. It is easier to say that you are spiritual than to admit the shortcomings that you possess, and how they don’t align to the standard set forth in the Bible (or any other religion, for that matter). It is an easy cop out that prevents any real acceptance of depravity.

    Jesus was a man of absolutes. He’s the only way. Only His name is the one by which mankind can be saved and reconciled to God. It is an extreme delusion to claim that experience can triumph over the knowledge and reality of the standard of holiness that Christians are called to subscribe.

    Those words are easy to say. It is easy to say that you follow Jesus and not some archaic, barbaric, exclusive sets of rules. But, Jesus didn’t chase after those who refused to follow when he confronted them with truth that illuminated their stains.

    A very incredible read, thank you.

  153. Religion is not the opiate of the masses, misguided “spirituality” is. A vibrant spiritual life can only thrive when it is rooted in fertile religious soil. Excellent post.

  154. I very much enjoyed your post. Religion itself is simply whatever you believe. Which is why I find it hilarious when atheists condemn “religion”, not realizing that the belief in nothing but yourself IS a religion too.

    Now, I’m not going to lie, I’m not crazy for “Organized Religion”, where men (mankind I mean) sometimes take liberties with what God has said in order to play God themselves. I don’t attend a specific church, but that’s because I’ve never been in a church that taught explicitly what I believe — that God is Truth and Love, and Jesus is Truth and Love made visible in flesh — the One True God taking off His immortality and clothing Himself with mortality, come, crucified and risen, His body immortal once again. For me, that’s the deal breaker, whether someone believes that Jesus is God Himself, or just a man.

    So I personally don’t have a problem if someone says, “I follow Jesus, not tradition.” I understand that. The Bible says that where two or more are gathered in Jesus’ name, there He is with them. So even if I’m just sitting with a friend, taking about God over a cup of coffee, to me, that’s Church. If anyone wants to go to a brick and stone church and fellowship that way, I certainly don’t have a problem with that at all. As long as wherever you are Jesus is the name on your lips, that’s what’s important.

    But you’re completely right, spiritual/religious… those two things go together, they aren’t mutually exclusive. Great post.

  155. I think where most people make a mistake is confusing ‘religious’ with ‘dogmatic’. And in that sense, I can understand if someone considers themselves ‘spiritual’ rather than slavishly following a religious dogma.
    I’ve had similar responses from my Christian in-laws, who thought that my Agnosticism meant that I was waiting for a sign from God in order to become religious. What they didn’t understand is that I’m not interested in an answer to every question. I enjoy the mysteries of life too much to have them explained away with platitudes.

    • This, this, this. Yes, yes, yes ——> “What they didn’t understand is that I’m not interested in an answer to every question. I enjoy the mysteries of life too much to have them explained away with platitudes.”

  156. Very heavy message. I have always been confused as to why someone would say they are spiritual, assuming it had something to do with not claiming a denomination or not having a home church. You have given me something to seriously think about.
    Great post!

  157. This article reminds me of the question that comes up within the game we know of as ‘dating’. “Spiritual, not religious” is a safe vanilla response for those who might be apprehensive to reveal who they really are. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I pray, but that doesn’t mean I buy into the story about Jesus. I think there are excellent morals in any religious sect and its really up to the individual to interpret them and apply it to their own lives. Religion is merely a resemblance of common thought throughout the age of humans. Metaphysical relationships are extremely hard to explain and understand just as ‘God’ is hard to understand. It’s an easy route to take by saying ‘oh, I’m (insert religion here)’. It’s a lot harder to say ‘oh, I’m in tune with my own spirit and how it interacts with the world around me’. I think some people in our societies are better off claiming a specific religion. It might suit them just fine. Lets not be afraid to stand up for what we really feel in our own hearts though.

  158. Pingback: More Encouraging Words | Will Write for Food (and maybe dental)

  159. Just, omg, all i can say to this post! 🙂 I’ve been hearing this phrase ‘spiritual & not religious’ for decades already, well, since I learned English fluently 😀
    And I was always wondering what dp ppl mean my it?
    Coming myself from an Orthodox Christian environment, and having learned what it is about, I now consciously transcended to what I can call ‘spiritual’, at last!
    And you are so right – one won’t get smart about spirituality unless she/he knows what being religious is about.
    Thanks! Great post!

  160. To “art & life notes” above.

    1. Arius did make his case strictly from Scripture and convinced nearly 1/2 of Christendom at the time, causing perhaps the largest splits in history. This is not proof that Scripture teaches Arius’ heresy, but rather that “evil men twist the Scripture to their own destruction” (2Pet 3:16). What broke Arius’ back was Orthodoxy’s reply from Scripture but also evidence of the earliest baptismal confessions of the Church, which testify to the triune nature of God.This was evidence the Arians couldn’t resist because there was no tradition in the Church of Christ being a created being up to that point.

    2. “It is the authority of the Judeo-Christian scriptures that reveals the triune nature of YHWH. The ecumenical councils were only codifying what had already been revealed in the Bible. To say that…”

    Almost right. The Council “codified” what was truly revealed in Scripture AND the way they knew this was the correct interpretation of Scripture (Trinitarianism) was thanks to the Apostolic Tradition which was alive and well in the Church – the Tradition from which Scripture itself came.

    3. “these issues can go either way w/out tradition is false. You’re essentially saying that the councils created Truth”

    Incorrect. The Holy Spirit doesn’t change His ways from generation to generation, hence the “tradition” of the Church remains constant, because the Spirit remains constant. Think of it: If there is continuation of the Holy Spirit in the earth we will only recognize it as something unchanging – Holy Tradition is unchanging. The Councils did not create truth, they defended it. They helped to draw the boundary line of orthodoxy (i.e. right worship and right thinking).

    I think where the misunderstanding is happening is when you attempt to remove Scripture from the Tradition from which you received it. The Apostolic Tradition includes Scripture. Orthodoxy believes in Prima Scriptura as opposed to the Protestant invention of Sola Scriptura. The reason Paul says that the Church is the “ground and pillar of truth (1Tim 3:15) and to “keep to the TRADITIONS delivered to you” (1Cor 11:2 and even encourages true believers to “Withdraw from a brother who does not follow the traditions” (2Thes 3:6) is because the apostles emphasized Holy Tradition as ones guide through the faith – not one’s personal opinion and interpretation of the Church’s holy writ (the Bible).

    Does that make sense?

  161. Eric – I would like to read something of your explanation of ‘Apostolic Tradition’ (vs. those who wish to disassociate themselves from religion). Pehaps you can supply something in a brief reply herein?

    • Dichasium, sure. Though it will be far from all inclusive, I’ll give a short summary the best I can.

      The Apostolic Tradition, or Holy Tradition (both terms are used in the Orthodox Church) is that tradition which was delivered once and for all to the saints, the same tradition Scripture makes many pleas for the faithful to follow. It is, as Florovsky put it, “the continuity of divine assistance, the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit.” It is an appeal not to abstract theological formulas, but an appeal to holy witnesses.

      These witnesses are intrinsically connected to the Orthodox faith being found in both the “kerygma” (preaching) of the Apostles and the dogma of the Church Fathers. But its not merely “right teaching” but also “right worship” (“orthodoxy” has both meanings in the Greek, it involves a unity of thought and spirit).

      All that said, the Apostolic succession, or as it is sometimes referred to “the canon of bishops,” and Apostolic teaching are both required for Apostolic Tradition. The main presupposition being: the Holy Spirits work in the earth has never ceased to be, and the gates of hell have never prevailed against the Church, as Christ prophesied. The Church is never “created” by people, it is only received. Thus, any movement which claims to have restored the ancient church is blowing smoke up your backside. They must claim that the Holy Spirit is inept to keep the Church and Jesus would have prophesied falsely.

      In short, the Apostolic Tradition teaching has as its primary text Holy Scripture and as its primary interpretive and exegetical method that of the Holy Fathers, via both their writings and the great Ecumenical Councils. And the Apostolic Tradition has as its worship the liturgical life virtually unchanged since the Patristic era. This continuum is found in the Holy Orthodox Church.

      For more I recommend “Aspects of Church History” by Florovsky, “The Orthodox Church” by Timothy Ware. There are many others one could suggest, but those come to mind first for me. Also, the true guts of the faith of the Fathers is found in the Philokalia. Hope this helps. Here’s a good link as well:

      http://www.antiochian.org/content/scripture-and-tradition

      Cheers.

    • Early in my faith I teethed on the Philokalia. I still have it in my library and you inspire me to reread it, Eric. Thanks for the reminder.

    • This is absolutely correct if one claims to be a Christian. Christianity wholly resists renegade travelers. One must be grafted into the “body of Christ” to be a Christian. As the Scripture makes clear, the Church is Christ’s body on earth.

  162. Eric, finally made the time to read your post, having seen it in the Freshly Pressed (Congratulations on that!). Thanks for throwing the cat in amongst the pigeons! I don’t have enough time or experience at Word Press, but I’m guessing the number of comments is far outstripped by the views you got – when our feathers get ruffled, it’s a good thing! It means something warrants our attention. I’ve said “I’m spiritual, not religious” in response to someone asking me about what religion I practice. I didn’t feel I could fairly claim a religion as I wasn’t attending a church.

    Your comment re having a “profound ignorance about the historic Christianity” struck a chord with me and my desire to learn more about the religion I was born into, Catholicism. Back in 1996, I took a five month course entitled “Introduction to Judaism” that was taught in Los Angeles at the University of Judaism. I loved it. I considered it a course in the bones of a religion – why Jews practice certain traditions and I learned to appreciate Judaism. I would catch myself thinking, “Hey, they stole that from us!” – laughter – and then realize, no, we borrowed it from them. There was so much beauty and light in it that it made me curious about my faith – the bones of it, what is behind the prayers, the mass, the symbols. So, I’m diving back in to find out. As I wrote in one of my posts, I miss being with people who believe in God and are willing to stand up and be counted. Incidentally, Mike, in one of the comments above, mentioned the videos of Fr. Barron. That was the first touchstone recommended when I contacted my local church. Just a short video and then a discussion. The Catholic Church has lasted 2,000 plus years and the Bible much longer. I want to appreciate why.

  163. I like the way universalist Quakers think about this matter. The Light — the Holy Spirit — God — is directly available to everyone. A person may find a spiritual connection to the Divine by following any of a variety of religious traditions: Buddhism, the best of Christianity, the best of Islam, the best of Judaism, etc. If the rituals of a certain religion help you feel connected to the Divine, then practice them. If they feel like useless or destructive rules that lead to rigidity and condemnation instead of compassion and forgiveness, then leave them behind you.
    Finding a community of spiritual seekers who support your spiritual growth, through or without long-established rituals, is wonderful.

  164. Virginia, I agree with you. Yet, no spiritual person has to limit themselves to one tradition only in writings.

    If one has a deepening spirituality and appreciation for their chosen religious institution, they can still avail themselves of learning of other spiritual traditions and writings.

    It has always been a great joy to me to discover the Oneness of Truth. The Holy Spirit guides us through to the vision of Truth, as our foundations are ready for building upon. The various stones build a beautiful edifice of Grace.

  165. Hi Eric.

    I like the way you state your argument, although, personally, I don’t agree with it – spirituality implies a belief in something immaterial or incorporeal (it doesn’t define what ‘it’ is, that’s up to the person who has these feelings); whereas religiousity implies a belief in the same thing, but with the added codes of conduct that a religion adds – if you like, spirituality is the belief that comes first, and religiousity is the specific forms that that belief takes. A person cannot be religious without being spiritual first, but a person can certainly be spiritual without being religious. Many of the world’s tribal peoples are animists – they believe in spirits living in water, trees, rocks, etc. It’s a very basic form of belief, and it neither implies nor produces any specific forms of worship or codes of conduct. These people are spiritual but not religious. Similarly, any small child that hasn’t yet been exposed to any religion may well have spiritual feelings – they may wonder what happens when we die, if we have a soul, if there’s something other than what we can physically sense, etc. But they haven’t yet developed or codified that belief into something more specific.

    On another note, perhaps if there weren’t so many religious people doing such horrible things, or taking their beliefs to the extreme, or using those beliefs to justify their abhorrent opinions or behaviour, perhaps more people would be happy to admit to being religious, rather than just spiritual?

    A very interesting post, and congratulations on being Freshly Pressed.

    John.

    • Thanks, John. Sorry for the late reply; been on vacation with family.You made a few points, let me hit what I think are the major ones:

      You said, ” if you like, spirituality is the belief that comes first, and religiousity is the specific forms that that belief takes.”

      This actually isn’t far off one of the points in the article. A person may develop spiritual beliefs outside of any specific codified religion, however when one attempts to practice and understand their beliefs further they develop their own sort of “small” religion that differs very little from “big” religion.

      Next: “A person cannot be religious without being spiritual first, but a person can certainly be spiritual without being religious.”

      I would say it directly reverse – a person can be religious without being spiritual, but a person cannot be spiritual without being religious.

      Then: “perhaps if there weren’t so many religious people doing such horrible things, or taking their beliefs to the extreme, or using those beliefs to justify their abhorrent opinions or behaviour, perhaps more people would be happy to admit to being religious”

      Interesting insert at the end, the part about “admitting” to being religious, because, after all, humans are religious beings by nature. Those who resist this part of human nature resist their very existential core. And, I’ll agree there are a lot of people doing terrible things in the name of religion, but why do you suppose people avoid this title due to the fraction who abuse it verses all the other titles people take which have just as many or more abusers? For example, why would someone assume the title of “anti-religious” when militant anti-religious types in the form of Russian Bolsheviks slaughtered upwards of 30 to 40 million people in a single generation (most of whom were my fellow Orthodox brothers and sisters)? Or what about those who stand for the supposed right for women to kill their womb dependent children? 3,000 babies are exterminated daily in the US by their “mothers.” I don’t know of any abortion activists who claim a religious backing.

      That’s my initial push-back. What do you think?

    • “…humans are religious beings by nature.” That is completely misguided and fallacious, and makes an assumption not able to be proven either way. People may be spiritual about anything, but they do not have to be religious to any one specific Religion. This is a roundelay you keep trying to make so by putting it in different words. It is not true, and never will be true; no matter how you dress it up. Move on to another topic that’s worthy of your time.

    • Robert, if it can’t be proven either way then by calling the idea fallacious you either contradict yourself – inferring you can prove it false – or your judgment is mere personal opinion and thus on no higher plain than my own, though I can give far better evidence than you to make my case. Btw, I stole the basic phrase from Mark Twain, “Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal.” Twain knew a thing or two about human nature.

    • Hi Eric, thanks for your reply.

      I see what you mean about ‘creating your own religion’ (for want of a better way of putting it) – I guess, when we attempt to put our own beliefs into practice, we do start practicing our own small religion.

      You took my statement and said it in reverse – so you think a person can be religious without being spiritual? Is that like saying ‘you can practice the rituals, but you don’t have to believe the faith behind them?’ I’m sure there are people who are like that, who don’t necessarily have any real belief or faith, but who practise a religion nonetheless. But doesn’t that make their practicing of the religion rather hollow? For example, I was brought up a Christian, and went to church when I was younger, and read The Bible. But I never really believed any of it. So did that make me a Christian (because I practiced the religion), or an Atheist (because of my lack of belief)? If a person is religious without being spiritual (which, I agree with you, is possible), then what are they practising a faith for? I would say that spirituality is like the questions, and religion is the answer (or one of many possible answers) – surely you need a question before you can have the answer, and, if you know the answer, but you’ve never really been interested in asking the question, then what good is the answer to you really?

      You say that human beings are religious by nature. I’d say that we’re curious and inquisitive by nature, and we certainly have a spiritual side, but I don’t know if that’s the same as being religious. It’s a natural human instinct to question and to wonder about things, but many things I’ve questioned and wondered about have been answered by science. I certainly don’t feel less human by not being religious (I would feel less human if I never had any curiosity about the world, I’ve just got my answers from a different place than religion/spirituality).

      I admit that, as an atheist, it’s very easy for me to look at the various awful things that a small minority of religious people do and think badly of their religion, or of all religion. But I know that those people are wrong, or stupid, or evil, and they would probably be doing bad things even if they were never exposed to religion. And I’m happy to say that I’m lucky to know many religious people of different faiths who are fine human beings (although I think they’re good people at heart, and I think they’d still be good even if they were never exposed to any religion). But you have to admit, Spanish Inquisitions, witch-hunts, and Islamic jihads don’t exactly make for great PR for their respective religions! But you’re absolutely right, many non-religious atheists have done awful things too.

    • “I would say that spirituality is like the questions, and religion is the answer ”

      Bam!

      I love that! Though I would say that spirituality is ultimately the goal of any legitimate religious practice, thus also the answer. And yes, absolutely someone can be religious without being spiritual, and that accounts for the many negative replies you see on this thread. We’ve all either been a part of cold, calculated ritual or have know others who are and the sort of Frankenstein-like results it produces. Unfortunately I think many were raised in a religion that made sense to their parents but they (the kids) never had any affinity for it, but were still forced to participate “for their own good.”

      Thanks for the hearty response. I wish I knew 100 atheists with your depth and honesty. Cheers.

  166. It will be interesting to see if you (Eric) have a reply for John’s response above. Also, I was enjoying thinking about your phrase’s ‘my little universe of self-taught Evangelism’ and ‘as a Christian solo artist’ and I recalled some old thoughts of mine. This being, that we do criticise this kind of self learning but I think it is a good thing because we usually come to personal opinion through thinking for ourselves, with the limited knowledge we have received, which at least means we are thinking for ourselves. But, if we care sufficiently about truth, we keep an open mind, and, in due course, we discover that there is more information which can alter our stance, as indeed it did for you. This can be used to reduce our arrogance and increase humility. Without this stage we would simply believe what we have passed onto us, which, could well have more damaging effects? Of course, the problem is if we arrogantly stick in the mud, act on these opinions, and do not remain open. Do you have thoughts on this and to John above, Eric?

    • Dichasium, I actually agree with most of what you said. I would argue, however, that simply launching out on your own is no test for “open-mindedness” or “truth-seeking.” When I was an independent Evangelical I prided myself on my initiative and self-informed theology. I think this is a far more dangerous path then sticking with an established course, and it gets you nowhere nearer the truth. I could demonstrate this in a number of ways, but just consider, for starters, that every nut-house and prison are full of self-starting, self-informed, independent types, whereas universities are full of people who are learning to learn from those who went before them. Imagine physics, medicine, law, biology, psychology, etc, without set “doctrines” and historic experience gained through a community of like-minded travelers. Why is it all of the sudden proper to jump on the independent track when one crosses over to spirituality and religion?

      This is what I don’t get from our popular modern thinking.

    • Surely the desire to have independent belief is due to several things, such as, most other subjects provide evident facts and foundations that have not been found wanting, or their errors have been clearly proved wrong as we become enlightened, so we feel we can proceed on good enough ground. With religion and the church, we fear being one of the blind led by the blind because modern life has been free to point to much error in the church leading to doubt and a strong feeling that belief must, therefore, be arrived at through individual personal experience and cannot be taught to order. This sounds perfectly reasonable. So, if changes are to occur anywhere, it perhaps needs people of your own experience to show that the foundations are there as ever, and we must see beyond SOME of its representatives to remain with the real thing, and not, instead, to take the encouragement to look to ourselves or elsewhere!

  167. I have been a patron of “organized religion” since before I can remember. One day I was attending a Bible study on the issue of “Justification”… as I sat listening to a 45 minute discussion on how we are saved? Are we saved by our own works? Are we predestined to be saved… on and on and on… I was thinking why all the discussion the Bible tells us very simply in John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” As I listened I realized that “organized religion” is not for me, it robes us of the beauty of God’s word. It contaminates it, flaws it and complicates it. I belong in the study of God’s word and following the teachings of Jesus Christ does that make me “spiritual” or “religious”?

    • Davies7, I almost agree with this line just as you wrote it:

      “As I listened I realized that “organized religion” is not for me, it robes us of the beauty of God’s word”

      Though, I think you meant to say “robs us” not “robes us.” But I agree that it “robes us” in the beauty of God’s word. After all, didn’t the apostle Paul claim that the “Church is the ground and pillar of truth” (1Tim 3:15)? How does the individual arrive at the truth without the Church? According to the Scripture you believe in, one can’t.

  168. davies7 – I expect you’d like a reply from Eric, but meanwhile here’s my quickie – I have always understood that the word ‘religion’ stems from a re-joining together. It seems to me that if we believe in Jesus Christ we are doing just that. We are joining in his spirit, so I think we are being spiritual in that way. Therefore both apply. But, clearly those who only want to be described as spiritual are not wanting to be associated with anything they find wrong in religions (which of course exists), and sometimes not with Jesus Christ specifically. But we all sin, whether part of organised church or not. So, I think it’s just a fear, all stemming from our ignorance. But we must all beware of judging, mustn’t we? (That’s not directed at you! It’s general).

  169. I don’t see the connection that you´re making between defining yourself as either religious or spiritual, it´s like apples and oranges, they´re not necessarily linked. Not to Christianity nor any other religion out there. There´s a broader definition than the small portion that you´re hinting at. And just because someone says that phrase doesn´t mean that they share the same definition of it as you do. Or myself for that matter.

    In my opinion, defining oneself as Spiritual just means trying to see the magic in the world, to try to believe in something without any ties to an authority figure such as a god or something similar. If that now means believing in yourself, your loved ones, mother nature, or a god. then that´s fine. Because it´s something that you shaped yourself, you´re given the room for personal development within your own parameters, without external absolutes that states what you may and may not believe in.

    I agree with John´s statement that “A person can certainly be spiritual without being religious”.

    • I won´t claim that I I have extensive knowledge on Christianity, because I don´t. But I have studied Buddhism and Shinto, I´m also living in Japan. and I believe that any of the western religions are a lot more written in stone than they have to be. I like Shinto because it´s more of a Tradition than a Religion. And instead of worshiping gods, it´s a lot easier to just see them as metaphors. Tradition leads to a tighter community that relies on themselves, while Religion relies on an external savior. I really don´t think that you have to look outside of yourself and your loved ones to find what you need.

      I don´t have anything against Religion if it´s the path that an adult chose. But I really don´t think it´s healthy for it to be pushed/introduced to a child. Even though this falls straight under what you wrote of Religion as “bad” and Spirituality as “good”. I see Spirituality as free thinking and Religion as having a partial initial belief which is than followed by having beliefs pushed onto you.

    • Our understanding of religion is vastly different, hence we come to vastly different conclusions on what it means to be spiritual, not religious. I understand those who have been hurt by an adult or spiritual “authority” figure regarding religion, but one is wrong, in my estimation, to categorize all of religion due to such an experience. It’s like taking the wrong road home, winding up in a ditch, and then blaming “roads” for your condition, forgetting that the “right” road would have led you home.

    • I´m sure that Christianity could, or any other religion for that matter could be a great place to call home if one would just let it. But my accepting oneself into a religious community. Then you´re not only responsible for your own thoughts but everyone else´s as well.

      I don´t believe that any religion out there represents some sort of an absolute truth, I´d much rather accept them all as misinterpretations. Spiritualists will generally not discriminate. but religions do. It´s not just the discriminator which is at fault, the community as a whole has a responsibility. Thankfully, most countries have now separated Religion and Law, but there´s still countries where they´re one and the same which is unforgivable in my opinion.

      Even though there´s no state church in USA, there´s still a lot of religious opinions which influences laws regarding homosexuality, abortion etc which it has no right to do. You ask not to categorize religion based upon the acts of few, but how can one not when it unjustly oppresses people all over the globe due to the fact that one doesn´t share the same practice that Christianity is built upon?

  170. Most of the post here are (excepting Mr Hyde’s) based on a Christian outlook on religion and spirituality. Well, I guess that would come as a big surprise to all the rest of Mankind who AREN’T Christian. If you are going to make any sort of argument on the subject, you have to realize that the world does not revolve around your Christian beliefs. Take an abstract point of view, remove yourself from the equation, and then look at what is around you. A great deal of the world does not even recognize the history or reality of Jesus Christ, yet you (the plural here) seem to want to cram your Bible quotes down everyone’s throats just to make your point. What if your Bible is wrong? What if it is just fiction? All of it? In the old World, if you weren’t Christian, you were Jewish or Muslim. There were few other choices, let alone the idea of being spiritual. Period. What makes you ‘religious’ also binds you with blinkers that obfuscates all other beliefs, and if noticed at all, condemns them as fallacious. It’s the “my religion is the only true one, and all you others are going to burn in Hell” belief-system. The only problem with that is all the other religious belief systems don’t believe in ‘your’ Hell and are laughing at your presumption.

    • Robert, my blog is representative of my experiences, thus they have have heavy Christian themes. However, most of the responses on this article, I would argue, are not from a Christian outlook on religion, as you stated. But, regardless, my saying that man is a religious creature by nature is not in reference to him being Christian but rather “religious” in general. If there were only 3 Christians on the planet it would not change this.

      To be honest, I’m not sure what to respond to since very little of this reply has to do with me personally. I guess I’ll just have to make a couple of observations and leave it there.

      1. Mankind is incurably religious to the core. This does not mean they are all Christians… It means they function in a religious manner. Again, think of “religiousness” as spiritual beliefs “dogmatized” and put to practice, not as organizations run by people wearing black carrying rulers waiting to crack your knuckles if you get out of line.

      2. The “old world” options were not Christian, Muslim, Jewish or bust. Please consider the fact that hundreds of other codified religious beliefs existed, including non-theistic ones, for example, Buddhism.

      3. The whole world is not laughing at a particular belief system’s assumption of the reality of hell. Rather, they mock the belief that nothing exists after death. The vast majority of our contemporary age, and every age before us, believe(d) in an afterlife. This is part of the religious core of mankind. You may think that atheism is the norm, but that only reflects your personal limited experience. If you were a practitioner of your own philosophy of “removing yourself from the equation and taking a look around” you would know that atheism is the extreme exception in the market place of ideas, not the rule. Get away from the isolated pockets of atheistic echo-chambers found in the west (particularly in academia), and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

    • Whatever the merits of the various…and never-ending… arguments, I applaud your awesome literary skill…”atheistic echo-chambers found in the West” has to be to be the most picturesque phraseology I have seen in months!

  171. Little late to the party here but I see religion as dogmatic. A defined structure that props up a belief system. It exists in Reiki circles and new age programs as much as it exists in Catholicism. Being told what to believe or how to worship or not worship is the religion. Experiencing something larger than ourselves or feeling something that is hard to explain as part of everyday life is spirituality.Spirituality exists within all religions and forms of worship as long as we don’t label it. Just sayin’

    • Scott, I agree with your definition of religion, but I would apply that definition to anyone who endeavors to understand and practice their said ‘spiritual’ beliefs. “Religion” is not the sole property of large organized forms of theistic belief systems. Thus, religion and spirituality, in my paradigm, go hand in hand.

  172. Dear Eric: You are correct I meant to say robs. However, I do not believe that the Church is the pillar of truth; I believe that the Bible is the pillar of truth. I believe the Church as an institution is something else entirely. I do believe that one can arrive at the truth without the Church. What about Abraham, Moses? Did they attend church? But I guess I am getting off the subject of “religous vs. spirituality” .

    • Davies, forgive me, but I’m struck by the fatal contradiction of your post.

      You say the Bible is the pillar of truth, yet you disagree with the Bible when it says the Church is the pillar of truth (1Tim 3:15). How is it that you believe the Bible is true if you disagree with it?

    • I do not disagree with the Bible or the truth that it contains. As dishasium says, when I refer to church I am referring to the “manmade buildings” and the person in the pulpit telling the listeners their interpretation of what the Bible says. Obviously you have spent more time in the New Testament; whereas I started at the beginning, Genesis and have read methodically, researching and reading other texts on my journey through this amazing book. Yes during my life on this earth, I have read much of the New Testament as well, but as with any other book, to understand the true theme you must start at the beginning, not at the end. As you read the Bible from the beginning you will learn more of the nature of God. I did not learn or gain this insatiable appetite for the word of God by attending any manmade church.

    • I started with the OT as well and I can read it to you in Hebrew if you like. But this deflection does not solve the contradiction. No one is claiming the Church is simply a building made by man. If you believe St. Paul then believe what he says about the Church. It is a major theme in his entire teaching. Cheers.

    • I see that the issue is often due to THE Church (whichever!), all too often has claimed to be the ‘be all and end all’, as this has alienated many, whereas, you have acknowleged in the blog that God’s people may well be also outside of the Church.
      (Some of my comment is missing from sight in this box! I wonder if you’ll see it all?)
      I would be interested to know why the Old Testament is considered essential, if one believes in Christ and His message of impartial love and ‘the Kingdom of God’. I have yet to appreciate the OT, so I’d be glad of reason which can encourage/convince me of its essential nature in my life, such as Anonymous above (davies7?) has stated. Any help welcome.

    • dishasium, maybe I am way over my head in this discussion. You people are obviously much more educated then I. I certainly cannot read the OT in Hebrew or any other language then English, so I will shut up and relieve you all of my dribble. I think the OT is just so fascinating. I love it. I love to read any texts that concerns the ancient times, bc, the creation, God as I AM and will be for evermore. Maybe I need to find a blog regarding books. Have you read the Book of Jasher or the Book of Enoch? I mean “Enoch walked with God, then he was no more, because God took him away.” It does not say that Enoch died it says that God took him away. Does that not blow your mind? Don’t you want to know more?

    • davies7, I’ve just lost my fuller reply to your two questions, so I’ll try a briefer one. Whenever I’ve delved into the OT I have interpreted the old use of language in the most straightforward spiritual way I can, and it does not present problems for me. In the same way, I just see the ‘original sin’ as a story to explain our lack of trust in God’s way. I see Christ as showing us how we misinterpret it still and what guiding principles we need to learn to apply as best we can. He gave His life to show us the way forward, and, it applies just as much today as it did at the original ‘sin’. What I mean. is that we can see it all working out today in the same way as the original, but the original story is necessary if we are to believe by faith rather than understanding. Some can do that, others need to ‘see; it for themselves in their own life, which I have. So, I feel that I understand as much as I need to and there are not unanswered questions bothering me. But you must recognise that I have never been arguing anything, I am merely ASKING if anyone can tell me why the OT is NECESSARY for me. Hope this helps. diChasium (not dishasium!) 🙂

    • Sorry I missed this till now, Dichasium. My reflex answer is the OT is important for all the same reasons the NT is important – it reveals God’s economy of salvation, it reveals who and what we humans are, it reveals who God is, His attributes, etc, etc. When the apostles said that “all Scripture is profitable for reproof, correction and training up in righteousness” they were speaking of the Scriptures that were in existence at the time – the OT. The Church Fathers use the OT extensively for illustrating the nature of God and salvation, as do all the Apostles. The Orthodox Church is not big on separating the two books but rather do everything to preserve the true nature of Scripture, that is, it is one continuous work.

      Hope that helps, just my two cents. Cheers.

    • Thanks for your two cents Eric. From them, it seems to me that whilst it may well be a continuous work, the first half is not necessarily essential to an understanding of the second. And, whilst it may be profitable for reproof, correction and training up in righteousness, it is not necessarily the only method for this. Nevertheless, I’ve had a long urge to look closer, perhaps I’ll do so eventually. With your next cent, have you any not too complex helpful books to recommend?

    • Oh man, the Church Fathers are replete with citations and explanations of the OT texts. I’m not aware of their being a compilation work produced, probably because it would be too vast an undertaking. It might be best to just start reading through the OT, take notes where you have questions, and then find a good ancient commentary on it from a Church Father, that’s my method now. Before I would attempt to do my own interpretations as one is taught to do in formal academics. But, using that method you’re sure to interject your own opinion and presuppositions on the text. Long answer to a short question, sorry. 🙂

  173. I disagree completely. If there is one thing free individuals should figure out for themselves if is their relationship with eternity and this can take shape in as many ways as there are human beings. You are implying a limit to the human imagination and soul. This is always a mistake. Who are you to tell anyone else what they mean? Did God tell you?

    • “You are implying a limit to the human imagination and soul”

      How’s that?

      And, in keeping in line with your thinking, who are you to tell me what I’m implying? And, if you have the time, could you tell me what it means to have an unlimited imagination and soul and how that benefits one in his spiritual journey? I would imagine that if one’s soul is limitless they are a god, why would they need to worry about being spiritual.

    • Infinity doesn’t mean divinity. The universe, as best we can understand it, is infinite, but not holy. As to your ‘who are you question,’ if you don’t want what you say commented on, shut up. Or grow up. If you’re looking for affirmation and pats on the head, go see your grandmother.

    • Kidawson, I was reflecting your comment with my “who are you” question. If you find it immature you’ll need to self-assess a bit deeper and quit playing the hypocrite.

  174. I did not reply to one comment you gave in response to me on Dec 30 about not necessarily getting nearer to the truth with ones own thinking, because I felt I had qualified myself previously by adding ‘if one cares sufficiently for the truth’. So, interestingly, I can now explain this a little further – When people show arrogance in various ways, I often do not feel inclined to engage further (that doesn’t necessarily mean that I won’t), as I feel a genuine enquirer would not fall into these ways. It is in this way that I feel a genuine seeker is given true answers, ultimately, if they persevere, in good faith (ie., as said, ‘if one cares sufficiently about the truth’), even if they are, at that particular time, simply thinking about things for themselves (and who knows where that may lead them at any future time).

    I always enjoy hearing fair sounding opinions wherever they are from, and weighing them up against my own experiences (just as I have with the words attributed to Jesus).

    On that note, I would like to put a suggestion to you and to hear your thoughts on it please, if possible. I have often wondered if the church referred to in the bible could actually be represented by some (perhaps all, whatever their failings), of the people who attend those man made buildings we call churches but, every bit as much, also be many without the building, who support the word of Jesus Christ anywhere that they be, without being visibly associated with the organised building/place. (Somewhat like the resistance army in wartime – we do not know who or where they are, but God would know them and make good use of them!) How would your church answer or deny this?

    • The Orthodox have a saying that we know where the Church is, but we don’t know where it isn’t, meaning the Church as a visible entity exists in the form of the Orthodox Church which has remained faithful to the Apostolic Tradition for these last 20 centuries without deviation in doctrine or worship. However, this does not mean that everyone who is baptized in the Orthodox Church is necessarily taking their baptismal vows seriously, nor does it mean that God is incapable of reaching those who never step foot in an Orthodox Church. His mercy endures forever. We believe the Orthodox Church contains to fullness of the faith for those who would accept it and that it exists as a sacrament for the life of the world.

      I came from an Evangelical background and the number one turn off for me when first exploring the Orthodox Church was its claim to be the one true Church as spoken of in Scripture and in the Nicene Creed. But the more I looked into it the more I realized they were only staying true to the claims of historic Christianity. It was me who was wanting the Church to contradict itself and forsake its deep ecclesiological roots. I hope that answers your question. Thank you for asking it. It’s an important point.

  175. Thank you Eric. I’d lke to understand these words of yours – ‘We believe the Orthodox Church contains to FULLNESS of the faith for those who would accept it and that it exists as a sacrament for the life of the world’. Any help on offer?

    • For instance, we believe that when other churches perform baptisms (if done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) are performing a legitimate “form” of baptism, but they lack the “filling.” Thus, many Orthodox priests will not re-baptize a new convert if they have already been baptized elsewhere, but they will still perform the Charismation part of the service for the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

      In a like manner, we believe the Eucharist is only fulfilled in the Orthodox Church, thus we don’t disagree with Protestants when they deny that their communion elements lack the true body and blood of Christ. These are the best examples I can think of off hand, but there are many more.

      It’s sort of the idea reflected in Scripture when the apostles told the Lord of other people who were casting out demons in Jesus’ name, but were not followers with them. Christ told his apostles to not stop them because no one who witnessed the power of God could easily speak evil of him. If people do not follow with the apostles, yet are not against them, they are “for them.” Here you see the mercy and love of Christ extended to all who would call on his name.

      As far as being a sacrament for the life of the world, there is actually a book by that title written by Alexander Schmemann (an Orthodox priest and professor). I highly recommend it if you’re even halfway interested in understanding Orthodoxy. in short, the Orthodox liturgical life is not just for the Church but it functions as a sacrament for the life of the world in that its presence in the world is the active and continual presence of the Holy Spirits work and the body of Christ offering prayers for all of God’s creation with the hope of the redemption of all things.

    • As a Evangelical Anglican, (raised Irish Roman Catholic in the 50’s), I am somewhat read in some of the EO, and yes Schmemann to Bulgakov, with thankfully Georges Florovsky in the middle, as others! 😉 At one time (years back now) I was an Anglo-Catholic, and then very Orthodox friendly. But now (and for many years now), I am Reformational and Reformed, yes with both Luther to Calvin! (Yes, I am an Augustinian and something Calvinist! Ou them tough words today! 😉 Yeah, I am an old “theolog”.) Though the Anglican Communion is a mess, the beauty and truth of the Anglican Thirty-Nine Articles (see too the Irish Articles 1615) still are great truth, in this very broken, sinful & fallen world! I fear that we don’t realize the great depth and power of sin upon us, and now this once modern to postmodern world! To quote St. Paul, “In whom the god (Satan) of this world (age) has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” (2 Cor. 4: 4)

      And the hour is late! (Matt. 25: 1-13)

      Btw, who reads any John Calvin here?

    • Haha, awesome collage of experiences Fr. Robert. Who reads Calvin? I just bought his “Institutes of the Christian Religion” and began reading it about 2 weeks ago. Though, I think the title is misleading. It should be, “Institutes of Augustine.”

    • @Eric: Rock on! 😉 Yes Calvin, (as Luther) were Augustinian. And btw, I am somewhat close to the EO on the Trinity of God (the monarchy of the Father in the Godhead! Augustine also btw held this this too. I should note and say, I taught theology and some philosophy in Israel in the late 90’s. I am 63, and somewhat semi-retired now. I was in Gulf War 1, I was a RMC, Royal Marine Commando, officer (retired there, reserves). I say this, for without the GW1, I would no doubt never have gone to Israel! I miss it there, and the people, Jewish and Arab, etc. That war, was a real providence for me (then in my early 40’s).

      Yes, I am a “Calvin” guy, but hey he is/was certainly fallible, as of course Luther too. But if you want to chat “Calvin” books, his as too others about him, then e-mail me? I have actually read the latest (1559) Institutes several times, as the first (1536). There is a nice book by Frans Breukelman, edited by his students (since he has passed), called: The Structure Of Sacred Doctrine in Calvin’s Theology, (Eerdmans 2010).

    • Fr. Roberts, you’re either BS’ing me or you’re one of the coolest guys I’ve ever known. It would be a pleasure to banter Calvin with you. I was a student of Dr. Daniel Thimell, who studied under James Torrance and I’ve studied many of the Reformed confessions and am currently reading through the Institutes. I’m always wanting to sharpen my teeth on the logic-acrobatics of Calvinism.

      Cheers.

  176. Am I correct in assuming that you are proposing noone can have direct contact with or knowledge of the source/consciousness/higher power (what ever you like to refer to as god/goddess/spirit) without a sect or a certain religion? :-/

  177. Tha’d be a negative, Kristina. I’m saying, “Anyone who embarks on anything spiritual will either receive the religious tradition from which it comes, or create their own religious tradition in the attempt to understand and practice it.”

    Creating one’s own boundary lines to capture her spiritual beliefs and practices is the creation of a religious confine not unlike large religious institutions. The difference between the Roman Catholic and the individual spiritual sojourner is that the former has a pope whereas the latter becomes her own pope. Both are “man-made” organizations, if you will.

  178. “In the Cross of Christ, as in a most splendid theatre, the incomparable goodness of God has been displayed before the whole world.” (Calvin, Comm. on John 13:31)

    But, what do WE personally think of it? That is always the great question! And shall become even our judgment to degree!

  179. I also think that what we think is due to our personal will and therefore accountable.
    (I have just read a different blog of Eric’s (can’t be sure of its title but think it is ‘Riding the Philosophic short bus), about a neuroscientist, Sam Harris, who tries to suggest that we have no free will).

    • In a Judeo and Christian anthropology we have a responsible will before God, but we are always sinful beings, so in ourselves we always choose our way, which is just NOT God’s way! But Christian obedience is itself, driven and given by God, Himself, and this is grace! In biblical theology, repentance & faith are themselves “gifts” of God!

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  181. Indeed we can see plainly the loss of the doctrine and teaching of Original Sin, in the Western culture and church today! And in reality Sin is like a ‘Helpless Guilt’ in humanity, even today, but sadly some have a “sheared conscience” in this our time of postmodernity!

    • Hello irishanglican, I think I understand what you have said but I do not know who/what you are responding to. So, would it be possible for you to elaborate on why you have made these three comments please? I am interested.

  182. Hello irishanglican, I think I understand what you have said but I cannot see who/what your are responding to. So, would it be possible for you you elaborate on why you have made these three points? I am interested, thanks.

  183. @dichasium: Sorry mate, I am just an old theolog type 😉 I was responding to the theological nature of Original Sin. I am myself an Augustinian as to the nature of sin and salvation! (that’s one that follows somewhat the teaching of Augustine of Hippo, at least as to sin & salvation).

  184. Indeed my first, and really long lasting love of the OT came first in reading Genesis, in fact I read it over and over again for months! That was over 40 years ago now! Along the way, I learned with a concordance that St. Paul loved the Book of Genesis also, quoting from it so very much in his NT Letters! See his Letter to the Romans. for example, and how important Abraham was and is…Romans 4!

    Here is one of my favorite verses from the pen of Paul: “For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.” (2 Cor. 4: 6) Indeed the NT is based upon the revelation of the Old, but Christ is always that revelation from both… HE is always the Logos and the Rhema!

    • Dichasium: In reference to your inquiry to Eric concerning helpful books regarding the OT. See if you can find a copy of The Heart of Hebrew History, A Study of the OT by H.I. Hester, you might find it helpful. If you are a history buff you should find it an interesting read.

  185. I disagree with your statement. I believe spirituality is possible without religion or any deism whatsoever. For a large part of my life I tried to find a religion that worked for me. Or at least one I felt part of. But after analyzing them I found myself in disagreement with the tenets and basic concepts over and over again. Finally, after a long time I realized that religion and spirituality didn’t need to go hand in hand. For many they do. For a few they don’t. We like to pigeonhole ourselves and others into labels and concepts which work for us. In my own journey I came to understand that the creative force that shaped our plant amongst all the others of Infinitum, isn’t something one can name, label, assign gender or creed to. It is also during that journey that I came to realize that Infinitum doesn’t even realize that I exist, our planet exists, the universe exists as a separate part because we are all part of it. I may not pray on my knees. I may not worship a name, but I am spiritual. I do call the quarters, I do cast a circle, I do call on the moon, but all as nothing more than a tool to bring me into a meditative and spiritual frame of mind.

    • Marlis, thanks for your reply. My point about spirituality requiring religion is captured in this line: “Anyone who embarks on anything spiritual will either receive the religious tradition from which it comes, or create their own religious tradition in the attempt to understand and practice it.”

      Truly you do not need a formalized world religion or theism (I think you meant to say) to engage in spirituality. We are spiritual beings to the core. However, one cannot help but create their own private religious tradition in order to live with their spiritual beliefs (and if one does not care to attempt to live their beliefs then he/she is merely window shopping and deceiving him/herself).

      Your phraseology is interesting too: “For a large part of my life I tried to find a religion that worked for me.” I believe this statement reflects overwhelming western preconditions of radical individualism as a presupposition of true spirituality. This is the exact opposite of the historic Christian faith, which says we are communal beings by nature and require others on this journey. For the Orthodox Christian this “other” is the mystical Church, i.e. the Body of Christ.

    • Dear MarlisB, I hope I am welcome into your conversation because I would like to raise this question after reading your comments. What is the point of bringing oneself ‘into a meditative and ‘spiritual’ frame of mind’, (if not to connect with something that we feel a need for)?

    • Good question. Connecting with the Energy which surrounds me. Connecting with the Energy which is in every single natural thing on this planet and in Infinitum. I feel no need to connect with an ‘entity’ or ‘personality’. When I meditate I connect with myself as well and it allows me to center and focus myself better. At the end of the day real prayer, not the kind where you bargain with your chosen god, but real prayer is essentially a form of meditating and very effective.

    • Thanks. That brings to my mind my cause for accepting that there is a particular benevolent force that I want to connect with, rather than a fundamental force inherent in life. I once decided that if there is no good reason for life, then the pain inflicted one way or another was too terrible to justify life (if life served no better purpose than mere existence). I had to put something good in it to make the pain worthwhile. For me, that is simply to learn to place love for each other the priority. If I pray, (The Lord’s Prayer is adequate), or if I attempt meditation, both are done to support my desire to have love placed above just life and its inherent force. I believe this force for good is eternal and I believe I am linking with that. This force for love is of course what is commonly referred to as God and I have no issue with this noun. I can do without all the issues that men put into it.

      That is how I can briefly explain my position (and without covering my views on the bad/evil in life and its cause/purpose – that would be quite a bit longer!).
      Hope you are glad to hear it! Kind regards.

  186. Wow did you ever get alot of replies. I guess it is like they say you should never talk about religion or politics…. I know what you mean about I am spiritual religious. I am 50 this year and i have been questioning my Religious up bringing. Roman Catholic.. reading the background of R.C. omg it is bloody and awful to the core… I have I have decided to have a look at other religions…. the main ones that is . I find that everyone has its finatics. They all have a certain sect want to go a bit tod far for their religions….

    I believe in one god, alll others are men that followed there teachings. And the greatess teaching of alll the number one rule is “Love each other as you would like to be loved….” If that is spiritual then count me in….

    • Linda, something that helped me was the acknowledgement that the Church is the mystical body of Christ. As an Orthodox Christian, I believe that Christ was (is) both God and man. As such, the Church is both God and man, and just as surely as man will fail, the Church will fail from time to time. But, this human element is critical. If the Church was God and only God what place would there be for humans?

      One cannot have a Church without the human element otherwise it is not of Christ, at least, not the incarnate Christ.

    • I my opinion , i believe that like muhhammod , and jesus were prophets , spreading the good word of GOD. And their is one god… No matter if you are black or white, No matter what your relgion is.. God is one god. U don’t need to pray in a temple or whatever , he is always there for you thick and thin.

    • The trouble with this idea comes very quickly when one realizes that all of these “prophets” disagree with each other concerning this one God. If they were all prophets speaking about the same God then one of two things must be true: (a) we must decide which of the disagreeing prophets is correct, since “prophet” engenders “hearing from God” and if they disagree then they cannot all be hearing from God, or (b) God is internally divided and hence not God.

      Opting for the first choice, since the latter is ridiculous, one must be discerning with which prophets they will believe, and if one of those prophets claims to be God we must be even more discerning. 🙂

  187. Tonight I viewed a beautiful documentary on Spiritual Activism. I think it is something that adds insight into the thread. It demonstrates that Religion and Spirituality are joined, as well as separate.

    Personally, I believe that people grow within the light of one or the other, or both, until they are united. I also believe that the Love that grows within them leads us to and expression of that Love in someway. Love is an act, the direction of which is outward.

    This documentary expresses that Love and the inspiration of the continuing growth in Love. Religion and spirituality can be expressed in many ways. As long as they lead to Love and Unity through acts of both, there is no separation. Each of us finds our expression of the Grace that has filled us.

    Perhaps the way to finding deeper Love and Unity is to stop dividing them up in ownership of truth.

    http://www.linktv.org/programs/fierce-light

  188. Pingback: On My Reading Desk This Week (02/17/13 – 02/23/13) | Word Vomit

  189. “I’m spiritual, not religious” says everything about me. I never put anyone down on their religious beliefs. Because the way I see it If you were born catholic you’d be catholic if you were born muslim you’d be muslim. Its as simple as that. What gives someone the right to say their religion is right and yours is wrong. It just depends on where you grew up.

  190. Finding the “right” way to discern spiritual truth (biblical truth) is indeed a lifelong endeavor. New Testament study, and true reflection of who we are in Christ Jesus, should bring each person into a relationship with the Creator of this world, the Great “I Am”. After reading much of this entire blog, I see many of us trying to find the thing that makes us “feel” happy or satisfied.
    That is not the purpose of a relationship with God, but only an outcome. The purpose of our Creator to created relationship should be to exult and reverence the Almighty. This “feel good” type of theology has it’s roots in old time spiritual wickedness (satanic). There is nothing new under the sun. We are coming full circle back to Adam and Eve being deceived in the Garden when they listened to the serpent begging the question, “Yea, hath God said,…”

  191. I’ve been away for a while. Your blog provokes me to ask dangerous questions.

    I resonated with the part you wrote about your first 10-20 years in Evangelicalism. That is my story too.

    Thank you for blogging, even if I have to take breaks for a while.

  192. Great Blog !! I also like to add eastern phylosophy gives less stress to religion, Buddha said religion is liek a boat to cross teh river of sufferings, after crossing one should abandon the boat, if you are still on the boat you are still on the river of suffering, that means you still give importance to religion then you are not free and you are suffering

    • Hello Meditation Instructor. It’s an interesting point you make. After I left the Mormon Church as a young teenager I dove into the one thing I knew better than anything, which happened to be Eastern philosophy due to many years of involvement with the martial arts. I found so much peace and satisfaction in zen, but always knew that I was missing something. I had a “born-anew” experience when I was 16 that changed everything for me. I began attending a non-denominational, charismatic Christian church. This church experience, which lasted for almost 20 years, was disappointing from the start. Eastern philosophy had effected me in ways that made sham Christianity unable to conceal itself from me. It was not until finally discovering the Eastern Orthodox Church that I found the peace and satisfaction which Zen had once given me a shadow of. I feel that I have found the fulfillment I could never find in Eastern philosophy within the Orthodox Church. And to be sure, the EO Church is by all accounts a formal religion, but also the most mystical path one could ever venture on. It sounds like a paradox to modern ears, how something can be structured yet utterly mystical, but this is the reality of true Christianity.

  193. Pingback: About the Term “Christian,” & Being “Spiritual, Not Religious.” « Art & Life Notes

  194. Sorry this is late – catching up on Freshly Pressed emails from the year past.

    Every debate on abstract topics (i.e. without mathematical or empirical base) comes down to semantics eventually. From my perspective, “spirituality” is the personal exploration of universal questions, philosophies, higher powers, moralities et cetera, and “religion” is organised spirituality, whereby some or all of your philosophy/morality/belief adheres to that of an existing group who share that view – a church, a sect, a cult, whatever you call it.

    For what it’s worth, I’d deem myself an agnostic atheist existentialist – I have not seen sufficient evidence of a deity to believe one exists, though I feel it is not within man’s means to determine one way or another. I also believe that a person is defined by the choices they make, and that the world has no -ultimate- moral values, though “love one another” comes pretty close.

    I think religion does a lot of good in terms of being a focal point for communities, maintaining a good set of general moral guidelines, and providing an external face for people to approach with problems they cannot deal with internally. However, when it comes to legislating on more specific issues, such as homosexuality, or “kosher” foods, the stubborn and seemingly arbitrary application of these guidelines puts me right off. Condemning other people for their private sexual activities doesn’t make the world any better. Eating or not eating pork doesn’t make you a good or bad person.

    This is where spirituality and religion differ, in my opinion. The former is flexible, personally tailored to fit with changing experiences and societal perspectives; the latter is rigid, a series of rules determined by another person telling how you are to behave whether it appeals to your personal viewpoint or not. I’m spiritual, not religious.

    In any case, thanks for sharing.
    Adam

  195. I totally agree with you. I get sick and tired of that phrase, too! It makes no sense at all. Without Apostolic tradition, one can say anything is right. We could say getting high on drugs every day was holy, and could follow suit, since, if we are making our own rules, who is to say we are wrong?

    No, the Bible, Apostolic Tradition, the Church Fathers, he Ecumenical Councils and the Eastern Orthodox Church are all there are for one reason: to teach us how to live our lives properly in God.

  196. I am spiritual, not religious. I say it is not empty. It is just an interpretation and a definition of how I see my relationship with my God. I don’t think it is empty or pride. If those two roads lead me to be closer to God, then so be it! God bless you!

    • My only follow up question is have you established boundary lines as to what you believe and don’t believe and how you’ve chosen to practice those beliefs? If so, you have a religion. It may be a religion of one, but its no less a religion than a religion of one million.

  197. I agree, though it never upsets me, think of me as spiritual or religious, I don’t care. people love to judge, you only have to mention the word “God” and they think you are a bible basher. leave people to their judgements, it is them who are lost not you.

  198. To be spiritual means to have ” a relationship with god ” . People seem to want to express spirituality as a distance from religion these days . But how can they ?

    • There’s an answer to your question in the 60 Bible Verses about what a true religion is:

      The first one is from James 1:26-27

      “If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person’s religion is worthless. Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.”

      Then there’s Matthew 24:1-51

      Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?” And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray.”

      http://www.openbible.info/topics/true_religion_is

      Nowhere does it say a religion has to have Cathedrals and churches led by Popes and patriarchs.

    • Many people do not want to be connected in any way with the word ‘religion’ or ‘religious’ because they associate it with the many things have been done wrong in the name of religion. To avoid that, they prefer to be known as spiritual. They find this easier that to keep explaining all the things they dislike about organised religion. The trouble is that this clumps all of religion together which makes many miss the true religion.

    • “The trouble is that this clumps all of religion together which makes many miss the true religion.”

      I laughed. They all claim to be the “true religion”, and that’s what the Bible warns us about—all the false prophets claiming to speak for God. There is no true religion unless you are referring to the Jews because in the Old Testament God makes it clear long before there were Christians or Muslims that He was excursively their God and He even encouraged the Jews to fight and take land away from anyone who wasn’t a Jew.

    • ‘They all claim to be the “true religion”.’ It seems you may have missed my point due to my wish to be brief. I cannot reply in scholarly terms, but my point is somewhat the same as your earlier one. I also do not think that any of the ‘they’ (who you speak of), own true religion. I am referring to the love described by Jesus, no matter who it is participating. There is no need to throw the baby out with the bath water, that is, the word religion, just because you are in disagreement with the many who think they alone have the rights to it. Naturally, the contributor ‘peterdoswell’ does not have to agree with my choice of true religion being found in Jesus Christ.
      BTW, I like the link.

  199. Sadly, its individual inclination to uncertainty, and we all do at a few focuses. I have observed that the more we concentrate on God, the more he extraordinarily uproots that doub.

  200. Hi Eric
    During recent searches I came across Wikipedia’s ‘Mysticism’ with quotes from several authors. I found that it matched my interpretation of “I’m spiritual, not religious”, but I do not follow Mysticism.

    In your article “‘I’m spiritual, not religious” you say ‘What gets me most is the presupposition it stems from, that “spiritual” is the assumed equivalent of “good” and “religious” is the assumed equivalent of “evil.” Who made up this language game?’ I would like you to be aware that the presupposition you speak of can only from those who have a partial awareness, and frequently, a partial interest in the whole matter. This is why the superior attitude comes out in so many who say it.

    The presupposition cannot come from those who have the experience described in the Wiki article, since it would be a clear contradiction. I might use the phrase “‘I’m spiritual, not religious” only to those displaying a superficial interest and merely to disassociate myself from their evident dislike of those who call themselves religious and then show hate towards other religions. But, I also defend religion by stating that those who hate others are not showing the fundamental love expressed by most religions.

    I hope this helps you to see that many who might use the phrase do not come with the presupposition. Also, that whilst the experience they and I have may be described by the word mystical it is not necessarily associated with followers of Mysticism.
    Perhaps McClenon (in Wikip.) says it best:
    “The doctrine that special mental states or events allow an understanding of ultimate truths. Although it is difficult to differentiate which forms of experience allow such understandings, mental episodes supporting belief in “other kinds of reality” are often labeled mystical […] Mysticism tends to refer to experiences supporting belief in a cosmic unity rather than the advocation of a particular religious ideology.”

    • I think that’s fair, so long as one understands “spiritual” to specifically mean “mystic.” But, then again, it seems that my original premise remains intact, that is, that even with the so-called “mystic” experience the minute one attempts to capture their mysticism and incorporate it into their life requires a set doctrine and practice in order to do so. A specific doctrine and practice relating to spiritual aspects is “religious” in every sense of the word (minus, of course, the popular association of religious with cold, mechanistic acting out of ritual devoid of passionate experience).

    • Eric, I did point out that my comments were exclusive of the doctrines and practice of Mysticism (only the experience described so well by it), so there is no debate about your premise :-).

  201. I am guilty of falling into the catagory of referring to myself as ‘spiritual’ rather than religious. I can honestly say I don’t do it in a disrespectful way. Simply to illustrate that my spiritual beliefs are not confined to any one ‘religious belief’. But that I am open to all beliefs and find inspiration and words of wisdom in them all. Rightly or wrongly, for many the term religious tends to imply one belief. Or way of worshiping. Whereas to refer to yourself as simply spiritual indicates an openness to all.

  202. This was a wonderful article. At first, I was a bit hesitant in clicking on it and reading it. My perception was that it was going to make me feel like a fool, as I, too, have uttered this phrase a few times in my life. However, I’m glad I read it. I grew up Orthodox, but my parents don’t believe in God. Still, for some reason, we continue to follow Orthodox traditions, even though most of the family is atheist. I believe in God, but over the course of my life, I have distanced myself from the Orthodox religion. About 5 years ago, I found yoga. Spirituality came into my life as a means of developing my own practice (physical and spiritual), and not feeling obligated to follow a certain religious process.

    That’s why, at first, I was a bit concerned about reading your article. But really, it put a lot into perspective. Spirituality and religion both follow a “certain religious process,” and maybe there is a deeper reason why I chose meditation and prayer instead of going to an Orthodox church every Sunday. I’ll have to dive deeper into that 🙂

    I wanted to thank you for your wisdom…..from someone who used the say “I’m spiritual, not religious.”

  203. All worthwhile achievements require discipline. To become spiritual is no different. One does not become spiritual by just laying claim to the label. That would be just adopting an image. One must structure one’s living, discipline one’s thinking, speaking and heart. Religion is the discipline of spirituality.

    Personally, I would rather say, “I’m religious, not spiritual.”

  204. Yes dichasium, many would say that, and I would agree with them too. Although its not as easy as just “being loving”. Love requires to be taught and learnt, to be studied, understood and brought to life in the individual, and teaching love requires defining and describing its quality, function, both objectively and subjectively, demonstrating it, understanding what it is and what it’s not, for there is true love and plenty of false and deceptive loves about. It has to be practiced and exercised, pressure trained and made strong, all of which takes an understanding of the craft of discipline as applied to love. So discipline and love are different, even though one serves the other. One could not land on a south pacific island 200 years ago and tell the cannibal mana worshipers to “love” one another and expect them to immediately get it. Even many in the Christian world do not understand love, they confuse it with lust, affection, admiration, desire, a want or need, a fixation, feel good feelings, a feel good interpersonal bond, appearing to fit an acceptable image of being loving, some think love is weak, others think its strong, some think love does one thing, some think it does the opposite, and so on. Personally I would say the essential purpose of the Christian religion is as a teaching and training institute for love. Sometimes in all fields of human endeavour we fail to realise how far we have come and how much we have learnt, and we assume others have a level of knowledge which they do not have. Computer nerds do it a lot, they advise others to, “Just do ….(such and such, some computer term)” and expect others to get it. Love too, often needs to be taught from the ground up. But I have waffled.

    • Thanks Crossbow, however, I was responding to you and, therefore, only referring to the love described and acted out by Jesus Christ in word and deed, not the other sort of emotion mistakenly called love.

      Nevertheless, in response to the things you mention, I will explain my view. The matter in question in this blog has basically been whether practicing that love requires one to participate in the ‘religious’ methods adopted by so many ‘religious’ institutions. Many see this as non-essential/relevant, (and of course, in some cases, rightly avoided when seen as the opposite of love for ones fellow mankind). I think this position needs to be better understood, without comparison, competition or criticism.

      I’m not sure if these days one needs to actively try to seek people who have not been introduced to ‘the gospel’. I think perhaps there is plenty of work in front of us all and those who feel fit for the role of teaching will hopefully take the opportunity where possible (each to his own talent(s)). Yes, it is unfortunate that some trying to teach others are unable to acknowledge their ‘pupil’s’ position.

    • Re. “I will explain my view. The matter in question in this blog has basically been whether practicing that love requires one to participate in the ‘religious’ methods adopted by so many ‘religious’ institutions.”

      Each religion emphasises and teaches different virtues and human qualities. For example, we can see that courage, wisdom, devotion, harmony, compromise, right and wrong, love and forgiveness, are each most emphasised and taught in different respective religions. And each religion has its own methods of teaching.

      The established religious methods may not have been required for every individual, for some people may have developed their own individual method of practice. And perhaps some people don’t even require any education, practice or discipline to be virtuous; perhaps they just naturally and effortlessly function at their greatest potential of love, as if they are born that way. But most people who have put in personal effort to achieve their higher potential have followed guidelines of some sort, for all effort requires direction, regulation and shaping. The individual might create their own guidelines, which in a sense is a religion of their own, or they may join with others in a group effort which may be a religion/religious institution. If they don’t need to do either, but without effort, discipline or guidelines just function at their most loving highest potential, then perhaps they are fortunate to have been born adept/loving/spiritual and not require religious practice in any form, personal or group.

    • Good! That is exactly what I meant you to take from my initial response to you. I am glad that we can agree. However, you have said ‘which in a sense is a religion’ and the point is that those referred to in this post will mostly not want to have the term ‘religious’ applied to them in any sense, so as to avoid being confused with the issues they see in organised religion.

    • (chuckle chuckle) … That is their delusion. Individually and collectively they are quite religious about not being religious. Notice that like birds of same feathers, they flock together, form their own rules of speech, thought and attitude. And they wear markers to identify themselves to one another, notably in the form of buzzwords and phrases, and mark themselves definitely by stating whom they oppose. There are the “I’m-spiritual-not-religious” set, the greenies, humanitarians, and of course that other religion of peace, the socialists. We see that many are even religious about their atheism. As belief in one thing is disbelief in another (it is the other end of the same stick), so religion follows.

      In a sense though, there is no such thing as an atheist; because everyone believes in a grand ultimate of some sort, a highest value, a prime importance or priority, so everyone has a god of some sort, they just don’t want to admit it. Everyone also has a dreaded thing, a devil, a least value of no priority, a wont-go-there, their least seeming importance – but most important as an antithesis to their grand ultimate. And all their other perceived things and ideas of how things are and aught to be, are arranged in graduating order – albeit it evolving – between the individual’s highest and lowest extremes of what is of value to them. And everyone has a subsequent pattern of thought and behaviour that comes from their spectrum of values. (When we know another person’s god, we know them.) And naturally people group together like similarly resonating particles do, and to some extent further adjust or attune to each other and encourage each other to do so, to ease interpersonal friction and increase a sense of group identity and progress.

    • crossbow -I don’t think they are deluded. Some perhaps are not thinking of the wider meaning of ‘religious’, but usually it is said in response to the question ‘Are you religious’ with its common church related connotations which they do not want to be associated with.

      Likewise you have done the same with the word atheist, using it in its wider context (not the subject of this blog).

  205. Personally I define religion as the discipline of spirituality, for both individual and group, and with some flexibility depending on the religion and the group. And I acknowledge that I later broadened the term to include those who take a religious approach to ideology, as similar individual and social mechanisms are involved in both groups. And people of those groups I named do often state their allegiance to their group or ideology in the same breath as they deny any religious affiliation, so they associate the two together, even though at the same time they deny it, and insist they are different subjects. As beliefs are double sided things, tied with disbeliefs, and passion follows either, and values have their counter values, emotions are paired in opposites, so religious attitude may be for or against religion, and either way is religious in the broader use of the term. I am throwing thoughts out there for consideration, which are relevant to and inclusive of the subject matter of the post.

    • Crossbow – Sorry, I meant that whilst I perfectly understand what you are saying, it is not relevant to our conversation as to whether religion or love is the discipline of spirituality. But I think it may be time to call it to an end, unless of course, you wish to say more.
      Happy Christmas and a fruitful 2015

    • I see. That’s alright dichasium, thank you for apologising, although there was no need to. I certainly took no offence or perceived reason to. I think hearty debates and disagreements provide us with opportunities for personal progress, so don’t be concerned about disagreeing with me as vigorously as you like. And from what I gauge from Eric’s writings I suspect he is an understanding, strong and tempered soul who can handle a bit of rough and tumble on his website.
      Thank you for the Christmas and new year wishes. I wish you a fruitful new year too.

    • Hi crossbow, I think we may have crosswires! Thanks for your generosity of heart but I was merely saying sorry to have referred to our comments as this ‘blog’ rather than this (our) ‘subject’. As a result, you seemed to think I was saying your comments on deception weren’t relevant to the blog but I merely meant that whether or not (& how), people are deceived is not relevant to whether our spiritual side can be disciplined by love without the need for that which so many (deceptively?) proclaim to be ‘religious’. (It’s the same argument that Jesus had with those who claimed to be religious but led lives far removed from the truth).

      I totally agree that debate and disagreement are good (when used for good purpose) and that Eric’s blog will leave ample space for it except when serving no good purpose (hence, no apology there 🙂 . For our own debate to progress we would need to find a good purpose for religion that serves love further than those who claim to be ‘spiritual but not religious’. (I have considered this matter but I was probably testing you originally!)

      Hope all’s clarified for 2015!

    • he he, maybe I should change my name to crosswires.

      Yes, depends on what a person means by spiritual and what a person means by religion. For these sorts of discussions one must precisely define one’s terms, otherwise it gets too fuzzy.

  206. I liked the way, in which you have taken up the issue. Every religion has the same underlying tone of love and humanity. Every other thing has been carved out from it. In some countries, religion was exploited by some to carve out different castes, it lead to casteism. The outcome is, for e.g. if a guy loves a girl of different caste but same religion, they will not be allowed to marry. This sounds ridiculous, but I have seen it happening. The bottomline is that the whole purpose of religion is lost. The youngester in me tells me to blast the people having such shrinked mentality. Then, the wiser side of me suggests that this can be changed in future generations. There is hope 🙂

  207. I’m religious but not spiritual. What I mean by this, I feel comfortable in calling myself “religious” – by which I mean nothing more than that religious belief plays an important role in my life. I don’t feel comfortable in applying the label “spiritual” to myself, since I’m not sure what that label means. If it means the same thing as “religious”, then I’d rather use the term “religious” since that term is much clearer to me. If it means something other than “religious”, then I’m not sure exactly what it means, and hence don’t feel comfortable applying it to myself.

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  209. Eric, I’ve always known it deep down, but now I have worked out the words:
    I am love; a Christian of any denomination, including those seen as Christendom; I am a Buddhist; a Brahma Kumari; a Jew; a Muslim; and all the rest. There is love in them all. I am all. We all are. Where there is love, creeds and laws do not exist. Love is everywhere, and flies freely to and fro, sharing its love wherever it goes.

    I think you understand?

    • Eric, an addendum to my comment of 11.17am – I am spiritual and religious. It fits in here, at the beginning:
      I’ve always known it deep down, but now I have worked out the words:

      I am spiritual and religious; I am love; a Christian of any denomination, including those seen as Christendom; I am a Buddhist; a Brahma Kumari; a Jew; a Muslim; and all the rest. There is love in them all. I am all. We all are. Where there is love, creeds and laws do not exist. Love is everywhere, and flies freely to and fro, sharing its love wherever it goes.

      I think you understand?

    • Oh Yes! And for all those who won’t yet understand:

      I am spiritual and religious; a Humanist; an Atheist; I am love; a Christian of any denomination, including those seen as Christendom; I am a Buddhist; a Brahma Kumari; a Jew; a Muslim; and all the rest. There is love in them all. I am all. We all are. Where there is love, creeds and laws do not exist. Love is everywhere, and flies freely to and fro, sharing its love wherever it goes.

    • Yes, and there is love in the children shows I watch in the morning with my 3 year old twins, but I’m not ready to equate Christ with Pingu or Bubble Guppies. All the sects you mentioned have entirely different concepts of God and worship and live accordingly.

    • Eric, I’m not sure why you have mentioned equating the love of any sect with the love of any other – I’m referring to the greatest love – universal, eternal love (by whatever name we may call it). This love is not interested in sects or divisions of any sort, but, recognises that there is an over-arching source from which it all emanates. Hope you are understanding, you’ve made me wonder now?

    • Dichasium, you’ve said you are now a Christian, help me understand how you interpret this very familiar passage of Scripture: “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14)

    • And perhaps one more if you have the time: “I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” (John 14:6). Or this: “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.” (John 14: 21)

      These sound a bit exclusive to say the least wouldn’t you agree?

    • Eric, I’ll happily show you how i interpret those two wonderful scriptures, but for the moment, it will cause a little of a ‘red herring’ because you have evidently missed the meaning of my origianl words, hence, your questioning my faith as a Christian is going ‘off road’. So, to get us back on track, let me first say this – the love shown in Pingu and Bubble Guppies (according to the info you provide), would be ‘milk’ for babies. God’s love is the ‘meat’ (or food), for the man (mature). God’s love (as expressed by Christ), shows us that we must avoid division with our fellow mankind, and when necessary, sacrifice the ‘meat’ for the ‘vegetables’ (you’ll know the chapter and verse). All too often, I see Christians and other religious people overlooking this and acting with a snobbery, thereby, causing division, hate and war, whether of the physical or intellectual nature. There is much of this mis-interpretation and use of Christ when it suits only. This is what I would like to see an end of, so that all can have heaven on earth.
      I think you originally recognised what I said but, it seems, did not appreciate where I am coming from, my meaning. Perhaps, this will clarify, (without the need to explain what we both already believe)?

      (Ps. Thanks for the other answers, I must Google if the USA uses British Summer-time).

    • Eric, For a clear explanation of my view of the ‘exclusivity’ you speak of – Did i recently send you a copy of The Gospel of The Essenes? They understood Christ’s message and it is in this elaboration of Christ’s message that i find the clearest expounding of it and the ‘exclusivity’. In case I didn’t send it to you, here it is (absolutely beautiful!):

      THE GOSPEL OF THE ESSENES

      Blessed is the Child of Light

      Who doth build on earth

      The kingdom of heaven,

      For he shall dwell in both worlds.

      Thou shalt follow the Law

      Of the Brotherhood,

      Which saith that none shall have wealth,

      And none shall be poor,

      And all shall work together

      In the garden of the Brotherhood.

      Yet each shall follow his own path,

      And each shall commune with his own heart.

      For in the Infinite Garden

      There are many and diverse flowers:

      Who shall say that one is best

      Because its color is purple,

      Or that one is favored

      Because its stalk is long and slender?

      Though the brothers

      Be of different complexion,

      Yet do they all toil

      In the vineyard of the Earthly Mother,

      And they all do lift their voices together

      In praise of the Heavenly Father.

      And together they break the holy bread,

      And in silence share the holy meal

      Of thanksgiving.

      There shall be no peace among peoples

      Till there be one garden of the brotherhood

      Over the earth.

      For how can there be peace

      When each man pursueth his own gain

      And doth sell his soul into slavery?

      Thou Child of Light,

      Do ye gather with thy brothers

      And then go ye forth

      To teach the ways of the Law

      To those who would hear.

      He who hath found peace

      With the brotherhood of man

      Hath made himself

      The co-worker of God.

      Know this peace with thy mind,

      Desire this peace with thy heart,

      Fulfill this peace with thy body.

    • It is absolutely beautiful. That brothers break holy bread together and share in the holy meal of thanksgiving, who teach each other the ways of the law to those who will hear. This is a picture of the Church indeed. Holy bread is not found among atheists, Muslims, humanists, and the rest that you noted, neither is there found ears that hear the holy laws of God. That doesn’t mean one stops loving them, in fact, it means one should increase his/her love in the hope of bringing them into the house of God. Holy bread, meals, and laws are all exclusive to the one true God who is worshipped in spirit and in truth. Truth is not a flight into relativism, its a flight into something very specific – a “narrow road.” What you seem to be preaching is an incredibly broad road, so broad that it matters not a wit which road one travels. Ironically, the Essenes were an example of one of history’s most exclusive religious groups in terms of who was considered a brother.

    • Eric, What a pity you are still not understanding my words. I’m not clear enough. What more can I say – do you want to hear? I’ll try –

      You have ended telling me about the exclusivity of the Essenes, but, I already stated this. What then do you think you are telling me – we are in agreement already, as my words showed. So, there is no ‘irony’ – you are definitely not understanding.

      You also say there is none of the things mentioned in the Essene’s gospel to be found in the others I mention – I have not claimed there is, or that i think they are on the Christian road. My ‘preaching’ is indeed no broader than the one Christ’s speaks of , but, my message is broad. It does indeed take a broad mind to see the similarities in all people and the fear which has stopped us all at some time. This is where the love of Christ shows us to have the same love for all as we are all sineers and have all been blind. We all know the way believers share in rejoicing together but many believers do not see the important Essenes message about one not being any better than others. This is what I want to help to promote an understanding of, for the sake of God’s plan, and with His help; in order to bring heaven on earth as soon as possible.

      Perhaps, I will not be able to remove your misunderstanding of what i am saying, but I’m more than willing to pursue it, (where I’m able), if you still wrongly think there is an irony, or, anything goes attitude in my words. and – you, of course, can choose. There’s only one aim for both of us I’m sure – to further understanding. 🙂 Hope this has helped towards this?

    • Perhaps I am still misunderstanding you, and it seems we are talking past each other just a bit. I encourage you to read back over what you have written from an outside perspective. If I’m totally misunderstanding you then there is a chance that it is still in a very cryptic form and needs better articulation. If all you are saying is that all people everywhere deserve the love of God since God’s love is already present with them then of course.

  210. Eric, I’m saying that I believe any person or group, who thinks they are in any way better than others, has made a mistake. Also, that this is not in keeping with, many, including Christian, tenets. God is our only judge. One way or another, I have come across this mistaken attitude in the many groups I’ve attended or witnessed. Perhaps this is why I posted it on ‘I’m spiritual, not religious’. We see it in others but, often, not in ourselves. When we point the finger at others (for not being as good in some way or other), we forget our common sin. I gave The Gospel of The Essenes to back up my thoughts because, for me, it is a beautiful elaboration of ‘Cast not the first stone’. We must not think we are ‘better’ in any way – this causes even more fighting. It becomes obvious when it makes wars but less obvious when we merely think it (sometimes even stating it) – but the error (sin) is the same in us all, even when we believe we have learned not to do it. Tomorrow we may fail and the ‘other’ man may go beyond anything we have or will achieve. More humility is necessary if we are to stop fighting one another and find heaven on earth. The Essene’s gospel says this too. That’s where I’m coming from with my original comment. Perhaps, this will help you to get my point about not thinking we are/have the best? If not, I think it may be time for me to stop?

    I’ve said it because it is a message I think we all need reminding of, and hence, no, I was not just saying ‘that all people everywhere deserve the love of God since God’s love is already present with them’.

    • Well, that’s all my briefer original version is saying – We are one and the same in our humanity. I’d like to see the end of our forgetting this when we have the idea that we have, or are, something better than the rest. (I’m a little puzzled as to why you didn’t get it).

    • Well, I was puzzled because I can’t read your mind and your actual use of words were anything but clear. Take for example when you stated “Where there is love, creeds and laws do not exist.” That’s relativism in full color. Add that to your other sayings of how you were one and the same as all other faiths, etc, and a very odd picture was painted. I know its difficult to see yourself through the eyes of another, but if you can it will help save you from being misunderstood in the future.

    • Eric, all I’ve done since your lack of understanding is explain the meaning of the words. As a result of explaining, you said you now couldn’t agree more with every sentiment in it. Yet, I haven’t changed the meaning of my words – they still mean exactly as they meant originally. I did not use them incorrectly. You have shown that you misinterpreted them, (and there is another example from your last comment, but, it will mean producing more evidence, and is, perhaps, not worthwhile, so I’ll leave this one, unless you particularly want it). Your lack of understanding does not mean others would have failed to understand. I wrote it for those who do understand it deep down but still need support to encourage them, and they will have instantly recognised the inherent message. Also, hopefully, for those who think they understand it but show, in their words and/or deeds, they do not – it would hopefully make them think again at sometime, if not on reading it. So, it seems it was not written for you and hence you missed its fundamental point. 🙂 Thanks, anyway for the discussion.

  211. Diachasium, forgive me if I’m being a little hard on you, I assure you I’m doing it to protect you not to harm you. When you first told me that you were now a Christian I was overjoyed. Then you told me that you were contemplating either the Jehovah Witness or Christian Science church. That caused me great concern. Then when you recently posted your many replies to this article I became increasingly worried that you had taken a flight into pure emotionalism and/or fell into some sort of prophet syndrome due to the ecstasy of the new vision you encountered in Christ.

    I see this a lot with new converts and experienced it all through my childhood with my mother. She was an extreme case though. Bipolar to the max, she claimed to be a prophet and would condemn anyone (which was everyone) who could not decode her prophetic rants as being “unable to understand.” So, yes, part of my reaction is visceral due to my childhood conditioning, I’m the first to admit it.

    Please hear my heart, I’m not against you, I’m with you. I only want you to see that there is a major difference between poetry (which was what your first posts were) and didactic articulation of meaning (which was your later post). And please resist the urge to put others under your spiritual feet because they don’t get where you’re coming from. It only serves to divide – the very thing you’re wanting to end. And please, please, please study the Christian Creed (the Nicene Creed) it will protect you from manifold heresies and destructive paths along your journey.

    Blessings.

    • As a former Christian and Southern Baptist Deacon I’m not sure which I consider the most absurd, atheism or Christianity. Atheism because they believe the purely physical evolved Consciousness the unfathomable or Christianity because they believe a loving God created sentient beings incapable of meeting his standard and then condemned them for it.

    • That’s strange – The Christ I’ve responded to does not lead me to believe that ‘ a loving God created sentient beings incapable of meeting his standard and then condemned them for it.’ I wonder where the Jesus Christ of Chritianity said this?

    • The Bible teaches that it is impossible for man to be perfect or sinless. God created man, did he not? God does not accept imperfection and condemns all because of it. How is one guilty of that which he is incapable of avoiding? Yes, the belief is that God provided a means of salvation but that does not change the fact that all men are condemned because of their inability of meeting God’s standard. In saying this I’m referring to the Bible, and not to what I believe is truth. The Bible was written by men, not God. Yes, you say the men were inspired by God, but it makes absolutely no sense logically and is constantly contradictory. We have countless people in every generation who claim to be “God inspired”. The belief cannot be logically defended and cannot possibly be true. It is as plain as the nose on your face but because of your “faith” and conditioning, you are part of the blind leading the blind.

    • Oh dear ‘Openobserver’! Just how open? You do not know me personally from Adam, and yet, because I have (finally, after decades of being an agnostic, truly an ‘open observer’, searching everywhere; going to and fro ALL the time; weighing this against that, against this, and so on, never giving up), called myself, a Christian – a follower of Christ’s way and examples, you have assumed (assumption is not open observing), that I must be one of ‘them’ whom you have shunned for their misunderstandings. You have carefully considered their poor use of words and claims beyond their own understanding and judged them as Christianity per se. I, according to you, am one of them.

      This paragraph is my reply to your last sentence alone. When I can, I’ll respond to the rest, unless you decide to lose interest. Just let me know for the sake of courtesy, so I don’t waste any more of my valuable time. I’m not here to argue with you or anyone, but will happily donate my time to a good cause. I believe you are a good cause and I know true Christianity is. Very best wishes, Dichasium and the Dove (love and freedom!). Must go now, and give time to some other area, for a short while.

    • That’s chunky thinking, and shallow.
      If consciousness results from the friction between spirit and matter, then both sources of consciousness are equally true.

      And for an “open observer” you observation is loaded with assumptions (or accusations) superimposed over the subject.
      Pure observation is clear of superimposition.

      Christianity is not a religion of condemnation for failings; it is a religion of forgiveness and liberation.

      Some might query how a church deacon who has studied the new testament, in which Christ’s teachings are all about the wellbeing and liberation that results from the practice of love and forgiveness, could not know that Christianity is a religion of love, forgiveness and liberation, not condemnation. But surely you do know that, that’s the thing. So the more relevant question is, why would you say it?

    • I guess we each have a different take on shallow reasoning. The reason a former church deacon can say such is that this one questioned the belief and found it contradictory, illogical and false. You say the belief is one of love but it is not an act of love to condemn. You say the belief is not one of condemnation but it teaches that the majority of God’s creation is condemned. So we disagree on what constitutes shallowness, it seems. God is not a creator of refuse, rejects and failures. No I absolutely do not know the belief to be one of love. I believe God is love and that is the main contradiction I find with the belief. Love would not even create one being for eternal suffering. Do you actually believe a loving God would create sentient beings for hell. What loving parent would do such. To believe that love would maintain hell for all eternity just so the billions would have to endure it without possible escape is to horribly desecrate both God and love. To believe that Jesus voluntarily died for our sin is to say God was busy creating sentient beings and condemning every one of them until Jesus decided to do something about the awful mess God was making. As long as it makes sense to you, my friend, go for it. I have moved well past such ridiculous contradiction.

    • You say you believe that God is love and that is your main contradiction with the Christian belief. Yet repeatedly throughout the new testament love is taught as being of God, even that God is love (1 John, Chapter. 4). So reject it then, but Christianity is not what you say. And you may think you have left it behind you, but you have not; you are a product of your exposure to its message and your rejecting of it. Now you are the conscious alternative, which you could never have become had you not been exposed to it and rejected it.

    • Openobserver, you definitely have Baptist theology down, but you’re not even swinging in the direction of historic Orthodox Christianity with such arguments.

    • Hi Openobserver – Great name! Your name would suit me too. I’ve been one for as many years as I can remember. But, fortunately, I’ve not been brought up in unenlightened aspects of religion (in fact, I was not raised in religious circles, at all). When you and others I know of, are let down by the unenlightened parts of religious understanding, they all turn to something better and you are absolutely right to do so. But, you must surely have heard of ‘throwing the baby out with the bathwater’. I too saw what you see in much of Christianity, and I looked at all sorts of other religions and groups to find something well beyond such shallowness. Whilst doing all this, I kept holding the few words I knew from Christ’s own words (not those of so many of his so-called representatives, who often, do not know it properly themselves). Christ’s own words ring true every time, they do not fail or let us down. They are ‘home’ truths. We can rely on him. Personally, I have found that those who turn away are actually finding the new place and easier, smoother, a more gentle ride. For this reason, many will stay there, in the comfort zone, thinking they deride Christianity, when, in fact, they deridie only the poorly understood people’s version of Christianity, and they remain where they are for the rest of their lives because of their past experiences. They think they know all they want to know about Christianity (yes, some are even Deacon’s, vicar’s and the like – I’ve known at lease three), and this prevents them from returning to find it full hidden depths which would make them able to withstand the nonsense they’ve received before. You are clearly at the stage of (stubborn?) refusal and so, you are indeed, where you need to be. Hopefully, you’ll keep Christ’s words alive and ‘seek and you shall find’, then return to the true fold, with a strength beyond compare.

      Best wishes, Keep observing! I have not even had time yet to read your particular reply to me yet, but, if I feel it needs something more than this, I’ll certainly respond and hope it may be of some use to you. Keep in touch with friends.

    • Thanks Dichasium for your comments. Yes, I am familiar with throwing out the baby with the bath water. The thing is, the belief is simply nonsense and cannot be logically defended. If you’ll read my post here, you’ll see some of the main contradictions and I can give you tons more. For instance, the belief claims that
      God gave man freedom but man chose sin. It makes absolutely no sense. Man is incapable of perfection or avoiding sin, so where’s the free choice? Furthermore, it is not freedom when only one choice is bliss and the other destruction. Such is not freedom but coercion. It is not love but manipulation. Such is the freedom a thief offers his victim when he says hand over your wallet or take a bullet to the chest. What about the innocent people of the other religions? They are just as sincere as any Christian but conditioned by a different culture just as Christians are. Does you concept of love condemn sincerity? What about the billions over the last 2000 years who never heard of Jesus? In the OT God is portrait as very cruel and vicious ordering the Israelites to destroy neighboring communities because of their worship of false gods. How ridiculous, no one is fool enough to knowingly worship a false god. Those people were just as sincere in worshiping god as any but just were doing it the only way they knew how. How about evangelism? Is God leaving the salvation of his creation to some to “save” the rest? I could go on and on but enough already. If you’re convinced of Christianity, nothing is going to phase you anyway. I am not discounting Jesus but I know that he was trying to teach the same as I. One must remember he was interpreted by Jews ingrained in OT teachings and anxiously looking for the messiah. There was actually more controversy about what Jesus was teaching back then as now. The truth is that God is all and all is God as the Eastern philosophies figured out thousands of years ago. There is only Consciousness and we are IT. I simply have rejected all that is contradictory and found only one left and that is Non-Duality. This is what Jesus was trying to teach but he had to be extremely careful because of prevailing beliefs but it got him killed anyway. Jesus said, ye are gods. Greater then these things will you do. Heaven is within you. etc. You may say I am selecting those that fit my belief and that is true but the others do not fit logic as pointed out. Best to you, my friend.

    • Hi Openobserver – I am only content with following Christ (thereby a Christian, albeit, not of the more conventional kind, I suspect), because I love what HE says to me. I’ve not yet had a great deal,, directly, to do with the church form of Christianity (but have seen what is questionable), but I have realised that whilst I recognise much of what they do, it may not be done in the manner I prefer – yet, still, will have some benefits possibly worth joining them for, for the good of God. Let’s face it ‘if your brother only eats vegetables, then you eat them with him – it requires give and take, at least for some time. I’ll ‘give it a go and keep and open observation!

      So, let me next tell you thisin response to some of your comments – I am, at this moment in time, as sure as I can possibly be about the teaching of Jesus Christ (as you clearly are). It has taken me decades of searching for truth and love. Your arguments, as you say, will not phase me, but not merely because I am convinced of Christianity, but because I reasoned out all these arguments against Christianity BEFORE I could allow myself to accept Jesus Christ. I had already worked out people and life to my satisfaction (that was rigorous, believe you me); then, having already found that I liked this bloke Jesus more than most people I’d met, I investigated his bit about God and sought high and low, round and about. It was during this time that I had to reason all the arguments against God, and, having done so to my satisfaction (rigorously again), I just had to find God! I’m not going into the details, but ,suffice it to say that, I finally ‘sort of’ tested God – now that is quite likely not very sensible or convincing, but it worked enough, in my mind, to allow me to work ‘as if ‘ God is with me, and this has had some amazing results and fruition. I already know that I cannot test God, He is far beyond me being able to test him! Therefore, I will not be let down by him. In fact, I can no longer be disappointed by anyone or anything. I understand the way it works. I may be wrong, but, I am not in the least bothered, because I don’t want to live any other way, and if God is there and my life produces good results, I know my assurance will be made visible in the results, and, if I go wrong, I’ll be directed to something better. If not, I’m living as I want to anyway and it’s freedom. But, I have great belief.

      Lastly, to touch a little, without biblical reference, on your stumble-blocks.
      1, Man is incapable of perfection or avoiding sin, so where’s the free choice? My answer: Love is not forcible, by nature. It can only exist by choice (both giving and receiving of it). Therefore, God (Love), absolutely, has no option (nor would desire it any other way), but to give us choice. Adam and Eve (metaphorical or otherwise), failed to acknowledge that their creator was superior, (even today, people and many scientists think they will ultimately know the planets secrets and manipulate them to their own desires – yet there is only one good thing to come out of anything – love – back to the beginning then, but via a huge amount of suffering and hellish things, all because we can’t live by love alone and thereby still live in fear of each other). The first man and woman placed this in humanity and humanity must now work it out of themselves. We are very slow to learn. Fear which was the automatic consequence of our error leaves us with fear and its daughter Ego. The rest, following from this, is life as we know it today. Each of us can find the ‘Kingdom of god’ within and when we finally overcome our error (sin), we will live in Heaven on Earth.

      I was going to reply to your other points, but, it’s going to be too long here at the moment, so perhaps one at a time eh? If you’re not happy with the way I’ve responded to your first one – let’s go from there. If you are happy and still want to see what I say about the rest, we can try that. What say you, my friend?
      Let me end this bit with this – Like you, everything must be logical and reasonable for me to accept it. It has taken the best part of my life before I’d put my foot in the water (I had to find it first!).
      Ps. I’ve not yet had time to read your corresponedence with the others, so, soryy, if there’s overlap.

    • Correction, Observer. You left Baptist theology far behind. Based on your understanding of the faith, from the little you’ve posted here, it seems that you’ve never encountered historic Christianity. The apostles, prophets, and bishops of the Orthodox Church composed and compiled the Scripture that the Baptists inherited and then reinterpreted to suit their own needs. I hope that in your journey you will consider the Church that antedates the Baptist sect by 1700 years and hear what it has to say about human nature and salvation from the Scriptures which it composed and compiled (repeat for emphasis). Its a universe away from what you left behind.

      Cheers.

    • My belief has nothing to do with Baptists or any of the other over 20,000 different Christian interpretations or denominations. It seems rather obvious to me that if God had intended to give man his word he would not have made it so ambiguous that hardly any two can agree on what it is saying. And he would have made it equally available to all of creation and not leave it some to “save” the rest. If you cannot see the nonsense of the Christian belief from the posts I have made here, I can only say, happy journey my friend, until greater understanding knocks on your door.

    • “My belief has nothing to do with Baptists or any of the other over 20,000 different Christian interpretations or denominations.”

      How do you know this since you’ve revealed that your education in the faith was Baptist? Might there be wholly different understandings of the faith from, oh I don’t know, the Orthodox Church let’s say? I’m guessing you’ve never explored it so how exactly can you be sure what it says about God’s word and salvation and such? We suffer no confusion over the issues you bring up and can answer them heartily, if you care to continue the discussion.

    • As St. Paul said, they are judge by a different measure since they had no law. What measure that is is the only mysterious part of it, but God is love and his judgments and methods are love. Those billions are still imago dei, images of God. He does not leave His images without hope. The Orthodox have no doctrine that says once a person dies that’s it, their fate is sealed. Christ even goes to visit such after His crucifixion as it says in the NT. The Orthodox Church is for the life of the world, the sacraments it performs are for the life of the world, to all, even those far off who never hear the word. God sanctifies our world through the elements it uses – water, oil, bread, wine – as an incarnational reality similar to the flesh of Christ in his incarnation. Those who have heard and receive the life of Christ in this life are blessed to begin theosis (partaking of God’s nature) in this life. Those who don’t hear now will hear, and see, the glory of the Lord.

    • And how about the innocent people of other religions, like the Jews who are just as sincere is trying to serve God as any Christian. They are raised in a different culture and have become “conditioned” by those beliefs just as the Christian has in this culture. Who’s to say who’s right? Does your concept of love condemn sincerity?

    • Hopefully my reply to your other question will help, but I could point you in the direction of the Church fathers who taught that Just as the Jews were given the law the Greeks were given philosophy which gave each a consciousness of God’s righteousness and beauty, drawing men to Him. Christianity presented the fullness of all the archetypes known throughout time in all cultures everywhere. In other words, they saw through a foggy glass at the realities of God and Christ incarnation revealed what they could only see dimly. It comes down to purity in heart. Jesus said to the pharisees that the kingdom of God is within you. Anyone who is “sincere” and honest enough to search within will find God. Then it is a matter of crying out to Him. From there God reaches all who seek. Those who have access to Christ’s words have an advantage, but a higher responsibility. The more one knows the more he is held accountable to it.

    • Eric, I’m really, really, touched by your kind-hearted concern. My earlier posts were ‘poetry’? – if true, that’s new to my personality and leaves me surprised. Anyway, beyond that, you need not associate me with your examples. I don’t claim or attempt to be a prophet; many people do understand me; my ‘didactic articultion of meaning’ is only given in order to respond respectfully and politey to your questions and responses (otherwise, i would not bother); I am aware of the dangers of the newly converted and I have my head screwed on the proper way!! Also, in support of what I’ve given there was, indeed one more, which was in the email I recieved of your original words but some of the words were removed from the one printed here – I assume you must have edited it at some time, and this does show some propensity on your part to see more than there is in my words, which would indeed readily colour the rest of your view on the matter – but, you have admitted that you do have this propensity due to your unfortunate childhood experience. I do want to leave it here though as I think it is right to do now. Blessings to you also for your kind and honest concern. I adore honesty – it is held at bay so much due to fear. (Perhaps I’ll go back to being agnostic! 🙂 )

  212. Interesting question: “What is the fate of the billions over the last 2000 years who never heard of Jesus?”

    I’m interested in hearing your answer?

    And then here’s a question back at you.

    What has been the fate of the billions over the last 2000 years who have heard of Jesus—please include the persecution of the Jews for those two thousand years; the Christian Crusades to the Middle East; the torture and murders of the inquisitions and witch hunts that took place not only in Europe but everywhere else where Christians have spread the so-called revised word of Christ; the Reformations endless Protestant versus Catholic wars, the Taiping Rebellion in China (the bloodiest rebellion in world history led by the Christian God’s Chinese son) and even the Church’s crusade against another Christian sect in France, and this is just the tip of the iceberg?

    • Hi Lloyd Lofthouse, Eric will surely answer you with biblical reference and knowledge, so, mine’s just to say that everything that has happened on earth is nothing but the result of our ignorance of the true God. (It is very simple when clearly seen for what it is, and its inevitable consequences, while we take the time we have to work it out of ourselves)..

    • Hi Lloyd. The question is somewhat confusing. You explicitly ask me to tell you what the fate is of the billions of Christians who persecuted others, but implicitly it seems you are asking me to give an apologetic for these so-called Christian atrocities.

      I’ll go with the implicit question/accusation since I can’t begin to know the explicit question. Let’s go in order:

      1. Persecution of Jews: sure, there was a lot of persecution on both ends. The Jews nearly wiped out the early Church and continued in hot pursuit for centuries. The early Church did fight back at times, and stuff got messy. Here’s a good reference: http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Jewish_persecution_of_Christians

      2. The Crusades: Here we have a few problems. (a) this was a Roman Catholic thing not an Orthodox East thing. I’m a member of the latter and really don’t have a need to give a defense of the former. After Rome split from the Church (i.e. the great schism of the 11th century) Rome was on its own without taking cues from the Orthodox Church. In fact, the Crusaders slaughter Orthodox Christians en mass in Constantinople. Something that is still a bit of a sore subject between Rome and the East. In short, you want an apologetic for the Crusades (that holy war to oust Islam from the Holy land after their brutal take over) ask a Catholic.

      3. The Inquisition: Again, ask a Catholic. This era was even further removed from the schism and Spanish Catholics were a completely different entity than the Orthodox Church.

      4. Witch hunts: Ask a puritan. Once again we have the serious problem created whenever a group separates from the Church and tries to wed their civil government with a faith based religion. You can’t legislate passionate faithful adherence to Christ. Islam, in contrast, works very well with civil laws because it does not demand passionate faith, but rather the performance of specific regiments of prayer and ritual with or without faith.

      5. Protestant vs. Catholic wars: Ask a Protestant or Catholic Irishman. Again, not an Orthodox sanctioned war. After the Great Schism the West fell apart. The left their root and became something foreign to the historic Christian faith.

      6. The Taiping Rebellion: is this for real? You literally consider a nut who read the Bible once and declares himself the brother of Jesus and henceforth created his own version of Christianity, attacked everyone in his wake, as a legitimate case of Christian persecution? You may as well claim Charles Manson a Christian bishop, or the KKK a Christian denomination, or Westborro Baptists representatives of the Southern Baptist Convention. Sorry, but every successful group has copycats. Christianity cannot stop anyone from forming their own thing and causing trouble. Actually, that was one of the reasons the Spanish launched the Inquisitions, but you didn’t like that so, damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

    • The Bible clearly warns us about false prophets, but they just keep coming and the sheep keep following and supporting them. If there were no religions, just two or three people who gathered in his name once a week to talk about scripture and what it might mean, that might end a lot of the suffering and deaths you listed in your reply that opted you as an individual out of everything caused by Christians hiding behind the name of their God as a church leader leads them into combat in the name of God.

      The key is to have a personal relationship with God—one on one—-and the removal of all religions and the fear and hate that so many stir up and that would be a blessing.

    • “The key is to have a personal relationship with God—one on one—-and the removal of all religions and the fear and hate that so many stir up and that would be a blessing.”

      How would you enforce that?

    • No one should enforce that. It should be voluntary and each individual is responsible to read scripture on their own and then find two or more individuals to join once a week to talk about it in a discussion—not a lecture that tells them what it means.

      Instead of being a flock of sheep, individuals would have to learn how to think on their own.

      And Christianity.com says: Researchers George Gallup and Jim Castelli put the problem squarely: “Americans revere the Bible–but, by and large, they don’t read it. And because they don’t read it, they have become a nation of biblical illiterates.” How bad is it? Researchers tell us that it’s worse than most could imagine.

      Fewer than half of all adults can name the four gospels. Many Christians cannot identify more than two or three of the disciples. According to data from the Barna Research Group, 60 percent of Americans can’t name even five of the Ten Commandments.

      http://www.christianity.com/1270946/

    • Groups naturally grow, though, particularly if their ideas are appealing to others, and for social/connection reasons too. And then they naturally seek larger meeting places. And before we know it we’ve got churches and congregations again. And the larger group arranges itself into a natural spectrum of leaders, contributors and followers, and it associates with other like minded groups and forms networks, and then we have an organised religion happening again.
      So logistically, how can we keep religious practice in small groups of two or three?

    • There is no easy way to get people to actually read the Bible and then join in small groups of people who also read the Bible and discuss scripture in historical context. Most Americans don’t read the Bible and what they think is usually based on a phrase that was pulled from the Bible to fuel a sermon from the pulpit. Imagine that: a pastor takes a dozen words from the Bible and bases his hour or longer sermon on those words and his sermon is based on his thinking.

      But the Old Testament has 929 Chapters, 23,21r Versus and 622,771 words. The New Testament has 260 Chapters, 7,959 Versus and 184,590 words.

      My mother studied the Bible. She msut have read the Bible a dozen times or more from cover to cover but she still joined an organized religion and most American’s also don’t realize that the Bible was written by people from a culture who thought and wrote in figurative language (metaphors and smilies0 and what we read in the Bible should not be taken literately. Scripture should be interpreted and discussed because there could be many different meanings for the same phrase.

      What we have in the Old Testament is a book based on 3,000 years of oral history before Moses and then his brother wrote it all down. What we have in the New Testament is the results of the Constantine making Christianity the state region of the Eastern Roman Empire and the New Testament does not contain all the writing of Christ’s disciples. It contains only what the majority of Christian leaders decided should be included.

      Then there is the fact that the original Old Testament was written in an ancient language and then those original texts were lost. When Ptolemy called some rabbis together to rewrite the Old Testament, but into Greek, what was lost in translation?

      Bible scholars have also called into question how contest changes with the simple placement of a comma or period and modern English and its rules of spelling and grammar didn’t come about until shortly before the King James Bible was printed. Before then, there were no standardized rules, so who decided where all the punctuation that didn’t exist before should go? One world renowned Bible Scholar and a devout Christian even went to Israel to compare the King James Bible with the oldest known copies of the Old Testament and found that adding commas could change the meaning of a passage. He then shocked the world of Christian scholarship by leaving his church and renouncing religion..

      In addition, the New Testament is incomplete. It doesn’t’ include all the gospels written by the 12 Apostles. The New Testament only uses four of the apostles Gospels and the decision to use only those four was made during the time of Constantine with his blessing. It was a politi9cal decision.

      But, today, there is an addition of the New Testament that does include all twelve Apostles. I have a copy somewhere.

      http://www.amazon.com/The-Apocryphal-New-Testament-Translation/dp/0198261810

      Politics and individual ideology shaped the Church and Christianity and the only way this happened is because of the vast ignorance of most Christians who know little or nothing about the Bible or its history.

      If anyone really believes in God and the message of Christianity, then they should study the history of it all in depth and discuss it with others who are doing the same thing knowing that whatever they think could be wrong. The only was the false prophets succeed is because of the ignorance of most Christians.

      Christians should also know the impact on Christianity of Saul of Tarsus, Paul the Apostle. They should know that Paul has had a huge impact on Christian thinking, and that he revised Christ’s message to fit his own biases and thinking. It was Paul who preached that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

      The Christian Church we have today is based on Paul’s thinking and not Christ’s.

      For instance, Many biblical scholars and lay Christians have noted that Jesus preached almost exclusively about the kingdom of heaven, while Paul highlighted justification by faith—and not vice versa. Some conclude that they preached two different gospels. Others argue that really they both preached justification; still others say it’s all about the kingdom. What gives?

      Click the link. This essay is worth reading.

      “Something was clearly happening to me. Formerly I had loved Paul and thought with Paul. Then, when I encountered Jesus, as if for the first time, I began learning to think with Jesus. One of my colleagues occasionally suggested I was getting too Jesus-centered and ignoring Paul. I’m not so sure I was ignoring Paul; after all, I was teaching a few of his letters on a regular basis. But I had unlearned how to think in Pauline terms and was thinking only in the terms of Jesus. Everything was kingdom-centered for me.”

      http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2010/december/9.25.html

    • Thanks Lloyd Lofthouse- I wrote something of this myself to Openobserver’s personal email only this morning (before your post) and I’ve no religious training so it (your post) pleases and reassures me. I wrote this: I was wondering what you think of this: The bible was written by man, so what if the words of Jesus’ ought to have been written “Ye are God’s”, with the apostrophe? It would have a different connotation, and yet, the rest would still fit, without an issue. And, of course, there are other references to Jesus’ words which could suggest that ‘Our Father’ is still separate in certain ways. Thanks again Lloyd L. I’ll be looking at the book and reading your post again.

    • You’re welcome but …

      to fundamentalists and/or those who read the Bible literally, it doesn’t matter who wrote, translated, revised and edited the Bible over the last three thousand years, because those so called true believers will just claim God was guiding their hands—I’ve heard this from more than one person.

      I suppose they will also claim that God was enhancing the memories of the ancient Hebrews who passed on the word of God orally as story tellers for 3,000 years while sitting around fires before Moses started to write down those camp fire myths that had been passed down for more than 75 generations. I wonder how much was revised and changed from the original tales. Did God approve all of the revisions too?

  213. I agree to some extent with Dichasium. Yes, everything that happens here is due to our ignorance of the true God which is us. There is only Consciousness expressing. God is all and all is God. There is no separation, only the One. In fact, believing in a separate God relegates IT to the limited. If God is separate, It cannot be infinite. If God is separate IT must be contained by boundary. The Eastern religions figured this out a few thousand years ago. There is no condemnation only a spiritual journey to awakening to what we really are. This is the message Jesus was trying to teach. One must remember, Jesus was interpreted by Jews ingrained in OT teachings anxiously anticipating their messiah. There was far more controversy over what Jesus was trying to teach then than now. The Gnostics version of his teachings are pretty much in line with Non Duality or the Eastern thought.

    • Whoa, correction. Gnostics were all about cosmic dualism. They fell in line with Platonic philosophy on this. It is the Orthodox Christian faith that repelled this dualism from the very start. I’m telling you Openobserver, open your observing powers to the Eastern Orthodox Church and you might really be surprised in what you find.

    • Well you’re partially correct. They did fall in line with Platonic philosophy. Like most sects there was wide diversity in beliefs, some favored dualism some non dualism. But in any case it was totally different from traditional Christianity, just as were many of the other gospels found since. Look, it is all a matter of what resonates with one’s reason and logic. Arguing politics or religion is a complete waste of time. No minds are going to change. Happy journey my friends.

    • I must correct your “correction”. Please see this excerpt from a source of Gnostic belief.
      “In the Gnostic view, there is a true, ultimate and transcendent God, who is beyond all created universes and who never created anything in the sense in which the word “create” is ordinarily understood. While this True God did not fashion or create anything, He (or, It) “emanated” or brought forth from within Himself the substance of all there is in all the worlds, visible and invisible. In a certain sense, it may therefore be true to say that all is God, for all consists of the substance of God.”
      This my friend constitutes Non Dualism and is just one of the many interpretations of Jesus from those who experienced his teachings at the time. Here is the full link explaining Gnosticism.
      http://gnosis.org/gnintro.htm

    • To: Lloyd Lofthouse and Openobserver (& anyone reading) – There is indeed only one Love. This is why it it unreasonable to maintain that religion and churches are wrong in their essence. ALL is ONE, ONE is ALL. EVERYTHING works for the good of God.To take the stance that one is right and one is wrong is a contradiction of terms. The sooner everyone realises this, the better for all, and the quicker we’ll have Heaven on Earth for one and all.
      Love to all, Dichasium. 🙂

    • Right on Dichasium!!!!!!!!! Damn, glad someone here is getting it! However, we have to admit that different beliefs do, in fact, exists and they cannot all be true. Let’s say we are all on our own particular path to awakening to truth, with all of humanity scattered about at different levels. And yes you are quite correct in saying that all we experience is simply aspects of our lack of “gnosis” at this juncture. Those engaged in violence at a much lower level but all will get there.

    • Wonderful, brilliant, Openobserver! So joyous to share it at last! Thanks so much for wiiting in. Love it!

    • “In the Gnostic view, there is a true, ultimate and transcendent God, who is beyond all created universes and who never created anything in the sense in which the word “create” is ordinarily understood…”

      Yah, because all of creation was brought about by the ‘demiurge’ in classic Gnostic teaching. Not sure where your article’s author is coming from historically but he’s off base with classic and ancient Gnostic teaching.

    • Eric, your suggestion of me openly observing other versions of Christianity is a bit ridiculous. If I haven’t made it clear by now, let me restate. I do not believe God to be a separate being. I do not believe God to require sacrifice. I do not believe love could condemn. I do not believe Jesus was God’s sacrifice for man’s sin. Now if you can direct me to a Christian belief that encompasses all that, I might consider it. The fact is, I’ve been there, done that and found it all nonsense. I’ve merely rejected all that was contradictory and founded on love and found only one meeting that requirement, Non Duality. As far as I’m concerned, unless one’s concept of truth accepts blatant contradiction, the Christian belief is nonsense. Unless one’s concept of love can accept it as convoluted, the belief cannot possibly be true.

    • Forgive me, but let me correct an above statement. “I’ve merely rejected all that is contradictory and found only one meeting that requirement and founded on love which is Non Duality.”

    • By the way, Eric, I’m still waiting on your answer to my question as to where Paul stated that those who have not heard of Jesus are judged by a different standard. Also, still waiting on your answer to the fate of those of other religions who are just as sincere in serving God as any Christian, but just conditioned by a different culture as are the Christians. Does your concept of love condemn sincerity.

    • One other point I’d like to make, as far as I know most of Christianity believes in the age of accountability which is not scriptural but something conjured up to make the belief a little more acceptable cause we couldn’t have a loving God sending babies to everlasting suffering. This would suggest that sin doesn’t bother God if we are not aware of it but once we become aware of our imperfection, it disturbs him greatly. If the age of accountability is true should we not shoot all children before they reach such to not chance condemnation for them? Think how many more would be in Heaven!

    • You’re wrong there too. The idea of an age of accountability was conjured up by the West when salvation began to be seen predominantly as something scholastic, something that happened as a result of an accumulation of knowledge and an act of intellect, a mental accent to a list of divine propositions. This is actually more of a Gnostic heritage found among Western conditioned Christian thinking. Babies are not sent to hell, they are not guilty of Adam’s sin. The Augustininan misinterpretation of Romans 5:12 set the West on course to believe that all have sinned “IN” Adam, thus including babies. The Orthodox never had such a demonic notion.

    • Jesus’ death was to effect the healing of sin and death. The Orthodox know this as “Christus Victor” – Christ trampled down death by death.

    • Eric, with Openobserver having ‘gone’, I’d like to ask you this -why do you feel the need for a separate God (ie., other than the alternative view of ‘I Am That’). I often do not get direct answere from people (and I do have my own theory), but, perhaps you’ll try to give me a direct answer? Thanks.

    • Why do I feel the need for a “separate God”? Your qualifying “i.e.” example didn’t help me to understand the question. What do you mean by a separate God?

      Btw, if you could, copy and paste your question as a new post below so that we can start a fresh. We’ve run out of room here. 🙂

      (Diachasium, see below, I copy and pasted it for you.)

    • “By the way, Eric, I’m still waiting on your answer to my question as to where Paul stated that those who have not heard of Jesus are judged by a different standard…”

      Already answered these. Please see above.

    • “Now if you can direct me to a Christian belief that encompasses all that, I might consider it.”

      I see, so you’re an ‘open observer’ for all the things you already believe. May I have the honor of updating your screen name to “Closedobserver”?

  214. Another question concerning Christianity that I need a little help with is this. The belief says that God is love, fair and that every created being has equal opportunity for salvation. Why then are most all the “saved” grouped culturally or geographically?

  215. If we accept that the Supreme Authority, God or whatever one wishes to call IT, is love, then such is the standard by which all teachings can be measured or evaluated. Brought to the level of individuals, love is embodied in the age old teaching, “Do unto others as you would have them do to you”. That teaching sums up all others and is the one guide that cannot fail. If everyone lived this precept, the world and our existence in it would be gloriously transformed.

    Consequently, love is the standard by which all teachings can be measured for truth. As humans we have those we dearly love which is far short of God’s love but the nearest a human can come to understanding what love is. If a teaching is consistent with how we would treat those we love, it may well be truthful, if not, it can be rejected as false and inconsistent with love, recognizing the love of God as much greater. What loving parent would condemn a child?

    Likewise with freedom, if the Creator says you are free to dabble with good and evil, do good and reap good or do bad and reap bad, such is freedom. However, should a Creator say, do this and reap bliss or fail to do so and reap damnation, such is not freedom but coercion. Such is not love but manipulation. Such is not freedom but rule by fear or tyranny. Thankfully, God really is love and the latter has never been the case.

    • Eric, i see you are in agreement with Openobserver – this is good.
      I have to say though, that I disagree with these words of yours ‘,,,those we dearly love which is far short of God’s love but the nearest a human can come to understanding what love is.’ Christ told us about this very limited love so that we would learn, from him, how to do better. We certainly can, many have.

    • Eric, I’m sorry but I can’t interpret three question marks – what part do you not understand?, and, if you want an answer, i am, as always, willing to offer one. (Always ready and willing for correction 🙂 ).

    • I’m not sure what you refer to when you say Openobserver and I are in agreement or where the quote came from that you attribute to me. I may have said it but I can’t seem to find it.

    • Have looked back Eric and it seems i’ve read Openobserver’s comment, mistakenly, as your reply! I am rushing a bit lately – sorry!

  216. If Jesus voluntarily died for man’s sin, what this says is that a loving God was creating sentient humans and condemning every one of them until Jesus decided to do something about the awful mess God was making.

    • Openobsever – I have observed that language can be confusing, especially when words need to be brief, are briefly recorded, or, are purposefully brief. As a result, i do not interpret Jesus’s death for our sins in the way you have. Personally, I believe all has been under God’s love from the beginning. Much confusion arose (just as there still is!), and Jesus voluntatrily gave his life to help us to be saved from so much harm due to such confusion. He helped to shine the light for us, to clarify love. He died for our sins, to me, means he died to show us them so that we have a strong light to follow. That’s more or less it for me and though I’m sure this can be improved upon, the gist is there for me and causes no stumble block. I see it that some words need to be unraled in/with love in mind – then it is clear and no issue.

    • Ps.Openobserver – The Holy Bible may indeed be God inspired (inspired by love), but, it’s written by man!

    • In my opinion, Jesus did not die for the sins of man. He died just as have many martyrs trying to teach truth but prevailing beliefs could not hear it because it countered their ingrained beliefs, so they put him to death. Jesus was trying to teach us that there is only one, “ye are gods”, “greater than these will you do”, “Heaven is within you”, etc.

  217. I know I am coming across very strong here but I am only trying to make as strong a case as I can to show the falsity of the Christian belief. I do not do such to antagonize but to hopefully persuade some to question and open to greater understanding.

    With that, I’m gone. If any care to reach me, my email is
    openobserver@yahoo.com and blog openobserver.wordpress.com

    • I don’t know about the rest of you, but.Ii, for one, am sorry Openobserver isn’t staying here for further discussion. I’ll contact him/her on the email given.

    • Openobserver, you’ve done a wonderful job making a case against the version of Christianity popular among many (if not all) Protestant sects, and I couldn’t agree with you more concerning your assessment of it (I’ve made many of the same arguments myself). If Protestantism was the true Christian faith I would probably have gone in a similar direction as you have in life. However, and sorry to be a broken record, but putting down Protestantism is hardly putting Christianity to flight. You’ve still yet to land a single blow on the historic faith as reflected in the Orthodox Church tradition. Let me know if you become an open observer of authentic historic Christianity, I’d love to help you explore. Cheers.

    • Crossbow, you know I love you, just want to put that out there first. The trouble is what happens when Protestants and Orthodox conflict on major issues of the faith? They can’t both be right, the truth cannot be two contradictory things.

      Take for example the Eucharist. Most Protestants believe the elements are purely symbolic or contain something of a “real presence” of Christ (as Luther put it), whereas the Orthodox take the historic stance that the elements become the body and blood of Christ, albeit mysteriously. Depending on which way one goes with this the Christian faith is radically affected.

      Take the Nicene Creed for example. It says that we believe in “one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.” Historically this has always meant that there is literally ONE Church, thus if a church is not part of THE Church it is not part of the one Church. If there is one Church then it follows there is one true Church. Does that mean all other churches are something wholly other than Christian? No, it means it lacks the fullness of the faith.

      I hope that neutralizes things a bit as far as any personal slight you may have felt from the comment. In truth, most Protestants I’ve ever met consider their own interpretation of the faith as the one true faith so there’s not really anything novel about the Orthodox Church’s take on the one truth Church idea.

    • Eric, I perhaps should keep out of this one, (Re. your reply to crossbow),as it must make it difficult for you to answer everyone BUT, can’t stop myself! Surely, no man can determine where the fullness of faith is. God alone can do this. It is not about knowledge, practice, or faith, but something God alone reads in each of us, no matter what earthly church we belong to.

    • Ah, but Dichasium, I did not say a man can determine where the fullness of the faith is. The Holy Spirit does that and the Church from Pentecost to this very day is constituted in the Holy Spirit and as Christ said, the “gates of hell shall not prevail against it”. The Church is the “ground and pillar of truth” (1Tim 3:15). The Holy Spirit continues to guide and fill the Church as He did from the beginning, as can be seen at the council of Jerusalem where the apostles gave a ruling concerning what aspects of the law the Gentiles were to keep by saying, “it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us…” (Acts 15:28). Either the Church is still the vehicle of the Holy Spirit to make us the body of Christ, giving us the fullness of the faith, or the gates of hell have indeed prevailed against Christ’s Church making Christ a false prophet.

    • Eric: Interesting that you and Openobserver had to engage so much over meaning of words used by ‘professionals’, yet, when you used the layman’s term (‘separate’), you both understood one another. As to your explanation to me that you did not say man can determine the fullness of faith – for my understanding of these words of yours, you did “If there is one Church then it follows there is one true Church. Does that mean all other churches are something wholly other than Christian? No, it means it lacks the fullness of the faith.” Who puts meaning into words but man? But, beyond this, you now point me to “The Holy Spirit continues to guide and fill the Church “, and “the Church from Pentecost to this very day is constituted in the Holy Spirit and as Christ said,”, and Your other words. Interpretation my man, surely, is still necessary? I, certainly, believe so, but I’d love to be put right, if I am mistaken.

    • Thanks Eric. There’s no need to worry about slighting or offending me, though. Neither of us should worry about that. We are men.

      Although it may, a contradiction does not indicate a falsity; a third fact may unite the two, making them compatible. The third fact may lie between them, overlay them, be back of them, even surround them, may be a small fact, or a large fact comprised of a series of lesser facts, or may be a greater truth than either of them, from which they both are part. We should be open to a third fact when viewing a seeming contradiction. If our mind first sees two items as contradictions, that tells us that an existent third fact is likely to be an extra effort and may stretch the mind, for mentally we see what is easiest to see first, and what we are used to seeing. This is the converse of the rule that correlation is not causation. Only the bigger picture containing surrounding facts reveals causation and confirms contradiction.

      I do not see many of the contradictions that others see, but I can see why they see them.

      Re. the Eucharist: Personally, I see such symbols as alive (I believe I made such a comment below your post on Symbolism in Orthodoxy) and as actually being what they symbolise. But if the Eucharist are real, then what does it matter if most Protestants consider them symbolic in the usual sense of the word? They swallow the symbol and idea of the bread/body of Christ (what Christ would do) along with the wine/blood of Christ (Christ’s heart and spirit), and do so in sincere prayer, and in doing so are made stronger in their faith and closer to their Lord, fuelling His fire within their hearts, making their spirit, words and actions more in tune with His. Christ does not hold Himself back from those making such effort to be in tune with him and to call him into their being.

      And what does it matter if the Catholic and Orthodox are correct and the bread and wine actually and mysteriously becoming the substance/energy of Christ? Surely that benefits Protestants too. Or would you suggest that God only transforms Orthodox Eucharist into Christ substance? If the Eucharist actually becomes Christ substance or Christ energy, why do Orthodox and Catholic priests refuse to give it to Protestants, even walking past dying Protestants in hospice beds pleading for holy communion before they die, ignoring their crying and their outstretched hands, and just giving communion to the Catholic and Orthodox patients even in the same room? What an awful tease, to withhold the substance of Christ from anyone who craves it, let alone a fellow Christian dying. I have witnessed this too many times. If the priests truly believed the Eucharist is transformed, and if their hearts were true, they would readily give it to any and all that desired it.

      Re. the Creeds: Personally I can relate to the three creeds and I believe them all to be true and beautiful. I believe in the one Christian Church, albeit with many sub branches. It is those who consider their own branch as being the whole tree who think the other branches are not of the same tree.

      I don’t have a problem with any denomination, or see any denomination as greater or lesser than any other. Its all the same tree, with different branches for different peoples.

      The traditions and customs as practiced in different churches are petty things, superficial, compared to what is in the heart of the individual.

      One’s faith is not measured by which church one goes to. Faith is within the individual, in the heart; it is the sureness of God within.

    • Hey Crossbow. Its funny, I didn’t actually know what gender you are and assumed you were female since you are a counselor. Isn’t that terrible. Anyway, now your commentary on the “Discrimination in the workplace” article takes on a different light (in a good way).

      Let me respond briefly to this since I’m pressed for time at the moment. So much of what you said would require a very lengthy discussion, so I’ll do my best.

      “What an awful tease, to withhold the substance of Christ from anyone who craves it, let alone a fellow Christian dying.”

      Priests have an obligation to protect the elements of the Eucharist for the reason that Scripture warns those who do not take it “worthily” can eat and drink it unto death. The changing of the elements is not magic. They change indeed, but their effect as a sacrament – a Holy meeting event between God and man – is not realized without faith. A Protestant taking the Eucharist takes it unworthily if he/she thinks of it as a symbol (in the popular sense of the word, i.e., as a sign standing in place of something else as a visual or imagination stimuli).

      As to the Creed, one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church means “one” Church, not one with many sub-branches. But our difference in interpretation of the Creed is a prime example of the differences between the two faiths. The differences in interpretations not just of the tradition but specifically Scripture are far too vast to list here – the list is likely endless.

    • Eric, Re. your earlier reply to crossbow (who is softer on you than I am) – You can’t have it both ways Eric. Either it is that yours (Orthodox) is right and Protestantism is wrong (your words “They can’t both be right, the truth cannot be two contradictory things.” Or, “there’s not really anything novel about the Orthodox Church’s take on the one truth Church idea.” (also your words). Are these two comments of yours not a contradiction? Or, am I imagining it, and if so, can you worm out, oops, I mean explain? 🙂
      (If you can’t, i may have to give up entirely here, as there is no progress if we do not persevere with one another- it just becomes a show of ideas/words and no real connection). I do currently have faith in you though, even though you have left quite a lot of my questions unattended (I realise that you are very busy)..

    • I’m not sure where the contradiction is. I’m merely pointing out that everyone believes their way is the true way – that doesn’t mean they are right.

      Dichasium, what questions did I leave unattended? You are right, I do not read every post, particularly not the ones addressed to others, though I try to get to them as well.

    • And help me with the “persevere” thing. How have I not persevered? Count my responses. I am more involved on my blog than nearly any other blogger. Just look around sometime. I probably interact too much.

  218. In the meantime, for those who wish to know truth, I share the following, “I AM THAT” by Maharaj, you can check it out at Amazon or read it for free at the following link. Or visit scienceandnonduality.com where you’ll find some of the most brilliant minds of today praising how science is now discovering that there is only Consciousness and becoming quite spiritual in the process which is a major shift for the scientific community. The world is now on the brink of a grand awakening.

    Click to access 1-I-Am-That-Nisargadatta-Maharaj-Resumo.pdf

    • The idea that there is only consciousness is radically dualistic when applied anthropologically. What it essentially says is that the body is of no importance since everything that matters, or has real being, is consciousness. If framed religiously it forms the backbone of the sort of Gnosticism rejected by the early Church. Christians believe that the body is holy and important as well. Human beings are not disembodied spirits – phantoms of pure reason. We are a synthesis of soul and body. For practical purposes, to make consciousness supreme is to unwittingly subject the body – and indeed all physicality – to the realm of nothingness.

    • Eric, “The idea that there is only consciousness is radically dualistic”. My friend the opposite is true. I think you are confused as to dualism or non-dualism. Non Dualism is the belief in only Consciousness, only one, non-dual, not two. And sooner or later all will come to that realization.

      “What it essentially says is that the body is of no importance since everything that matters, or has real being, is consciousness. If framed religiously it forms the backbone of the sort of Gnosticism rejected by the early Church.”

      Here you are essentially correct. Physicality is of no importance, only spirit or Consciousness is of essence. Physicality is objects, or rather that which appears as objects. Physicality is limited, quantifiable, mostly explainable, in a constant state of change, without limits, eternal and is not limited to a body. If it were, it would have identifiable boundaries and we would know where mine ends and your begins. In reality, physicality does not even exists, it is all phenomena of the senses or Consciousness. No one is saying that the body is of no meaning, because all is Consciousness including the body, rocks, trees, cars, etc. But these are of no consequence as far as the eternal or Infinite is concerned. They are finite and come and go. I do not claim to be able to explain all of this well but if you’ll visit scienceandnonduality.com you’ll find it all very well explained there. You are also correct in saying that the early church rejected Gnosticism and Non-Duality which is where they missed the boat and have since misled billions. What threw them off was their insistence on interpreting Jesus in the context of the OT which Jesus was trying to steer them away from. I know there are quotes supposedly from Jesus indicating that he was fulfilling that prophecy but there are also others that say quite the opposite, like the Gnostics and some of the other Gospels that the early church tried to destroy.

      Also, my friend, you are incorrect about Gnosticism, they were believers in Non-Duality and they witnessed the teachings of Jesus right along with with the Jews who saw Jesus as the messiah they were so anxiously anticipating. And the Gnostics interpreted those teachings of Jesus as confirming their beliefs of Non Duality. You questioned the author I quoted but if you’ll review their beliefs a little further from various sources you’ll confirm what I said.

      Now, we are left with thousands if not millions of different views all stemming from the very same historic occurrences. If we were to take ten intelligent people with no prior knowledge or bias of religious history and have each spend their whole lives researching that same history we would most likely end up with ten different opinions on just what happened because there is simply no concrete to build any definitive case. As I presented here previously, as far as I’m concerned, one can best get to truth by the process of elimination which I have done by rejecting all that is inconsistent or contradictory. And the only one that meets that requirement for me, is Non-Duality.

      Furthermore, the simple fact that countless opinions of what God is abounds, says to me that all of these are insignificant. Surely, a God of love would not leave salvation of his creation to such question and confusion. For Pete’s sake, even human law is as plainly stated as possible so that people know what the speed limit is.

      I will respond later to your other statement but I first want to review all of our previous discussion and build my case from there. It seems that somehow I have missed some of your responses.

    • Sorry but I must make a correction.

      Here you are essentially correct. Physicality is of no importance, only spirit or Consciousness is of essence. Physicality is objects, or rather that which appears as objects. Physicality is limited, quantifiable, mostly explainable, in a constant state of change. Consciousness, on the other hand, is without limits, eternal and is not limited to a body. If it were, it would have identifiable boundaries and we would know where mine ends and your begins. In reality, physicality does not even exists, it is all phenomena of the senses or Consciousness.

    • Openoberver, I think we may be missing each other in our application of “nonduality”. You are using it in the strict “consciousness only” sense whereas I am using dualism as the ancient Gnostics used it in terms of cosmology. Please see Manichaeism or Valentinus from the early periods of the Church. These forms of Gnosticism were definitionally dualistic in their cosmology. Orthodox Christianity rejects cosmic duality in its entirety.

      Also, I will admit I have not read your entire post here as my time is limited at the moment, but plan to. However, it seems that our usage of “dualism” should be cleared up otherwise we will continue talking past each other.

    • Eric, as far as I know, in either religious or philosophical traditions, or for that matter, the dictionary, dual means two or separation. Regardless, various sects, interpretations, etc., what this whole thing boils down to is whether or not God is a separate being. I do not believe so and I further believe that is what Jesus was trying to teach when he said, ye are gods, heaven is within you and greater than these will you do. Some consider it a great blaspheme to consider our selves to be God, However, the opposite is true. To believe God is separate is to belittle him/IT. If God is separate, IT cannot be infinite. If God is separate IT must by definition be confined by boundary and consequently finite.

      And I must again repeat that the Gnostics interpreted the teachings as confirming their belief in God as all. Everything is the expression of God. For the One to express, required contrast, opposites, duality, etc. so all that we experience is simply that expression but not real as far as the Infinite is concerned. We are all simply aspects of the One which is precisely what the Gnostics taught. Also, I believe the gospel of Thomas reflected the same. For some reason the early church felt very threatened by any teachings that opposed their own. Truth cannot be threatened and only non-truth would fear opposing teachings.

      I strongly suspect that it was more politics than genuine spirituality that shaped early Christianity. The Romans figured out how to control the people and flood their coffers by interpreting the scriptures for the people.

    • “what this whole thing boils down to is whether or not God is a separate being.”

      No, classic dualism is all about the belief that there are two principles of ontology at work: one good and one evil. That is the classic Gnostic understanding of the cosmos.

      “I further believe that is what Jesus was trying to teach when he said, ye are gods, heaven is within you and greater than these will you do.”

      That verse is actually linking back to the fact that God created man in His own image and likeness. The promise of Christ in the NT is that man can again “become a partaker in the divine nature” (2Peter 1:4). This is what the Orthodox call “theosis,” and is the basis for understanding the Orthodox doctrine of salvation. Man can join with God’s energies, but not his essence. God is Trinity. One is isolation, two is division, but three goes beyond all division. God is love in HImself in that He is ontologically trinity – His being is communion. To partake of the divine nature is to come into communion with God, not to BE God. Much more could be said of course, but time is not on my side at the moment.

      “I strongly suspect that it was more politics than genuine spirituality that shaped early Christianity. The Romans figured out how to control the people and flood their coffers by interpreting the scriptures for the people.”

      Care to share any evidence of this? You rehearse a very trite concept of Roman politics forcing Christianity into becoming something foreign to its roots but this has been roundly refuted on nearly every level possible, and is really just a popular excuse for many sects today to gain liberty to in fact create their own version of the Gospel.

  219. This from Diachasium:

    “Sorry for not being clear for you again Eric, the problem for me is that I’m not ‘au fait’ with religious terms; although i’ve read some of it and philosophy in the past, I’m not overly familiar with them,so, i use my own language (layman’s terms),and this is not so familiar to you. this often appears to others as ignorance on my part but, i assure you, it does not mean that i have not considered the concepts quite deeply or do not understand them. So, here is the question as you would appreciate it – Is the Orthodox church dualisitc or non-dualisitc?”

    Hey Diachasium,

    The reason I wanted you to copy and paste this to the bottom of the thread is because when the comments condense on the right of the screen it becomes very confusing as to who is responding to whom. I did it for you so we can start fresh.

    The Orthodox faith is strictly non-dualistic. Only God has being in Himself, i.e., only He is the cause of His own existence. There is nothing else that has being in itself. Put another way, there is nothing else – no person, no entity, no force, no substance – that sustains itself. All things are contingent on the Holy Trinity for existence.

  220. Eric, you are not understanding Gnosticism. Yes, they believed in a dualistic cosmos but only to the extent that physicality experiences such which they did not accept as real. They did not believe in a separate God. THEY DID NOT BELIEVE IN SEPARATION!!

    As far as your interpretation of “ye are gods”, such is just that, your opinion or interpretation and that is fine, each has his own but there are endless interpretations. Again, it makes no sense to me because of the inherent contradiction which I have already presented. But I respect yours. As I said, there is no concrete only endless opinions or interpretations.

    And no, of course, I cannot prove that the early church was manipulated by politics. Purely my opinion because the whole of it does not meet my requirements of consistency. But hey, as long as it makes sense to you, great!

    Hey, we have each presented our beliefs. It seems that now we are down to repeating opinions and defenses with little new or substantive.

    Personally, I do not believe a loving God would create humans knowing in advance that they would have to endure endless suffering. If your concept of love can accept that, then there is no common ground for us and we could bat this around forever and get nowhere. As far as I’m concerned, such is blatant contradiction. Yes, you can come up with endless arguments to try to make it work, but you cannot dispel the underlying contradiction, in my opinion, of course. 🙂

    To each his own, huh?

    • Indeed. I think we have exhausted the topic. But one last thing: the main difference between God and man is that God is uncreated and man is created. The idea that all people are God is as contradictory and logically absurd as it gets. All created things are contingent for their existence. God is Absolute, i.e., not contingent. If you believe your consciousness is absolute in its existence so be it, but please save your breath in calling Christianity ridiculous.

    • My friend, you just don’t get it. Nothing has ever been created or destroyed. You need to just sit back for a while and think things through. What existed before anything was created? Only God, right? At that time (in reality time does not exists as Einstein and many other physicists have stated) there was nothing in existence but God. Consequently, it is logically impossible for “all that is” to create outside itself. There would be no such space or substance. What you call “the created” is indeed dependent upon Consciousness for existence, but that existence is temporal and consequently unreal as far as the infinite is concerned.

      Sorry for calling your belief ridiculous but just the fact that we are both quite sincere but disagree, in itself relegates the endless beliefs and interpretations as totally insignificant in the larger scheme of things. As I stated before, no loving God would leave something as crucial as salvation to ambiguity,

    • Openobserver – you may have seen my response to your earlier comment to Eric, and personally, I still believe there is nothing in your previous or current one to negate it, if you will test it. But, on your current one, my thoughts (if you will test them with my previous one), are this:
      Yours words “Consequently, it is logically impossible for “all that is” to create outside itself. There would be no such space or substance. What you call “the created” is indeed dependent upon Consciousness for existence, but that existence is temporal and consequently unreal as far as the infinite is concerned.” My question – If this universe is temporal and unreal, why do we have it (and not the eternal)? Please bear in mind that there is my earlier thought as well as this one from your correspondence with Eric. (Must now walk the poor old dog -who, at least, ‘get the crumbs’!

    • “My question – If this universe is temporal and unreal, why do we have it (and not the eternal)?”

      The One, chose to express and that required contrast, opposites or duality. There can be no expression without contrast. The one is without contrast, as is. Consequently, the universe and duality, but it is not real or eternal but merely a play within Consciousness as IT imagines infinite multiplicity manifesting creativity of which we are aspects.

    • Openobserver, i just saw your other reply but it does not answer my post of just now, so please see, my questions therein. Ta very!

    • “Consequently, the universe and duality, but it is not real or eternal but merely a play within Consciousness as IT imagines infinite multiplicity manifesting creativity of which we are aspects.”

      Thus there is no we, no self, only the IT and we are merely “aspects” of IT’s unreal imagination. Wow. You can’t get more nihilistic than that. I’m curious why you are so dogmatic about your beliefs since there is nothing to be dogmatic about. Seems to be a contradiction.

    • Eric, at the small risk of incorrectly appearing to be ganging up on Openobserver, did you notice my posts to him before yours – we (you & I), are apparently on the same track (in our different ways). I will be pleased to see if we can be knocked off it, as I, as always, will be pleased to learn something new, or be more assured of my personal beliefs, (maybe even help others along the way).

    • I see, so all that is, minus consciousness, is temporal, yet nothing was ever created. That is, the temporal world is eternal. I wonder how long I will have to “sit back and think things through” before I make this logical absurdity logical.

    • Eric, let me see if I can restate it so you can get it. I certainly never said or implied that the temporal world is eternal.

      “I see, so all that is, minus consciousness, is temporal, yet nothing was ever created. That is, the temporal world is eternal.”

      All that is, IS Consciousness, there is nothing else. Obviously, if nothing was ever created, there is no world to be eternal. You are distorting what I’m saying.

    • It would help enormously if you could come up with language that does not come loaded with meaning that directly contradicts your main points. Using words like “temporal” to establish what you mean by imaginary, when temporal traditionally conveys the idea of something existent contingently in time and space, is bound to confuse. The challenge for you is to define “real.” If what is real is merely the IT’s consciousness, yet what IT consciously imagines is not real then all we’ve done is create one big clusterF of confusion.

      Also, one tip while you are away, Openobserver. You may want to self-identify as a Monist rather than simply a nondualist. Monism is more descriptive of everything you seem to believe. “Nonduality” all by itself is too varied a concept to communicate anything as pointed as your own beliefs.

      Btw, whatever happened to the OP? You seem to be both spiritual and religious, highly religious on the dogmatic side of things.

    • Openobserver, I have not ‘exhausted the topic’, and whilst it should indeed be ‘each to his own’, I believe, all things are better shared and open, and not left in the dark (for fear of exposure). So, now you’re apparently, back on site, where we can share our thoughts for all to see (and respond if wished), I would like to share mine with you and others:
      I have often said to others that if I brought myself and/or this universe into existence, I believe that I would be aware of it. Therefore, I do not think I made myself or the universe, but think, something ‘else’ (separate), did. I also think it has a greater ability that my knowledge gives me (I do not know how to create a universe (the scientists are still trying). Hence, at this moment at time, I think Jesus meant something other than the road you go down. This may be due a grammatical issue but even if he did indeed man what is recorded, still, I cannot explain how I am equal to the ‘thing’/force that was necessary for the universe to exist (because I do not know how I created myself), and therefore, cannot honestly (with factual evidence), claim to be.

      It (this force (movement)) is separate in the sense that it was not in the physical realm when it became the physical realm, and, even if it was, it was there before the rest developed, making it unique.

      I too look for contradictions everywhere because I strive for consistency, because I strive for truth, because I believe such a ‘concrete’ truth does exist beyond our mere opinions. I have already stated to you (on your own mail), how I find some of the things you find as contradictions, not to be a contradiction at all, (as crossbow beautifully put to Eric). You have not answered that either, so, I wonder, who is fixed in their own belief? I am never trying to be a clever-dick but simply want us all to question our beliefs with a view to helping to bring ‘Heaven on earth’ – You see Openobserver ‘Heaven on earth’, Jesus did know that something ‘other’ exists. And before you say it, yes, the ‘kingdom’ is within, but we are requested to bring it out so that we can all partake together – we do not have that ‘other’ on earth, unless you see this earth with eyes I do not have. Regarding one of your other ‘contradictions’ – ‘You can find ways to say, well, God gave man the choice and man made the wrong one. It makes no sense, man is incapable of living sinless, so where is the free choice.’ The free choice was ‘in the beginning’. But, as you believe there is no other force/God than us, you’ll never be able to view that comment with the mind of an open observer. It will always be a stumble block for you, unless you think again (about your pseudonym). So, there’s no point in me elaborating at this juncture.
      BTW – there are at least three of us here who are not ‘fed up’ with you – we are all ‘men’ and wanting to love with open observation. Glad to see you back.

    • Dear Dichasium, Thanks for your comments.

      “I have often said to others that if I brought myself and/or this universe into existence, I believe that I would be aware of it. Therefore, I do not think I made myself or the universe, but think, something ‘else’ (separate), did.”

      While we’re in the physical body, we are indeed limited with a mind of limited understanding. Obviously, it was not physicality or the limited mind that either understands or created the universe. We are not the physical body or mind, such are merely limited aspects of the Infinite which is our true reality. Please understand, I do not claim to have all the answers and I can direct you to many who are much more intelligent on the subject than I. Physicality or what appears to be such was brought into existence for the purpose of expression of the ONE. Purely my opinion, of course. However, one can find considerable sources in agreement.

      As to “the free choice” being in the beginning, such makes no sense to me. It does not make sense to me that a loving God would create a pair, watch them fail and then follow that up with billions more and condemn them all for the original failure. To me, such is a grand distortion of God, love and fairness.

      The question all of you have for me then is, why would you accept Non-Duality and reject our religion. As I have stated here over and over, I cannot accept what appears to me as inconsistency. Yes, I did my open observing and eventually accepted that which resonates as consistency and truth to me.

    • Openob, has the IT ever imagined anything that is real?

      Since you said we are aspects of IT’s imagination, yet we are not real, that would mean aspects of IT’s consciousness is not real.

    • Dear Openobserver, I have not given you reason to respond to me in this way. It is not reasonable of you to say this to me in response to all my reasonable questions and comments. If i am wrong please give me the honour of hearing your reply/replies – else you will have wasted all my time and yours. (Others can speak for themselves). i am happy to continue privately with you, if we have more to share, if you wish?

    • Openobserver, let me say this – (regardless of Eric’s responses), I was most certainly NOT ganging up on you, (it was merely a point of interest), in comparing my response with Eric’s. I said – at the ‘small’ risk of offending you because i do not know you quite enough to be assured but thought i knew you enough (from our personal correspondence), to credit you with more maturity and integrity. Please prove me right, if you will/can.

    • Dear Dichasium, It is becoming obvious to me that the people of this blog are pretty dedicated Christians and that is fine, most of my family, even wife and children are devout Christians and wonderful people. Those here do not consider me open and I consider them closed. Hey, that’s only normal but I see no point in continuing offering points of view that do not resonate. Life is much more pleasant when we stick with those who think alike. I have poured out my heart in pointing out the inconsistencies and contradictions but somehow they just fly right on past. They ignore those and pick on points where they think they find vulnerability in their defense and damage control. I have been there and done that so many times in the past. When will I learn that it is a waste of time and energy talking to those with different ingrained beliefs. Both see the other as closed minded. People get very comfortable in their beliefs and though they may not realize it, have a fear of that comfort being disturbed and leaving them confused and unsure. They think they have their ticket to heaven and do not wish to consider having to rethink anything. If they only knew that the real “good news” is much greater than what they have accepted.

      I don’t know just what questions you are referring to and no I haven’t read all the posts and have pretty much lost interest and wish to simply move on. I mean no disrespect, I’m simply tired of this dialog. I have other things to do. My views are simply much different from those on this blog. Surely, with all I have posted here you can find whatever answers you are looking for. Or again there are a great many posting YouTube videos, articles, books, etc. on the exploding subject of Advaita and Non Duality. Some of my favorites on Youtube are Alan Watts, Rupert Spira, Wayne Liquorman, scienceandnonduality.com and of course if you bring those up you’ll find hundreds more. I suggest exploring the Internet on the subject to find your answers. You’ve heard my “preaching”, try some other sources who are more advanced or enlightened than me, maybe those will resonate better. Best wishes to all. Larry

    • Openobserver, none of what you say applies to me or anything I’ve said. If you do not, as you say, know what questions i have put to you, you will obviously not be aware of my good purpose/intention or why you are wrong to put me in any such bracket, regardless of who else you are referring to. I’m sorry you should accuse me of something i’m most certainly not guilty of, but unless you search properly and question me, you will fall into your conclusion about me. That perogative is most certainly yours for the taking. What a pity my friend. Au revoir – unless you ever want to take a closer look at my words and return again through my private email – I expect to be there for some time, at least (but we never know!). Yours in all sincerity, integrity, trust and love, Dichasium.

  221. My goodness, that certainly is terrible. Could you not see me in the picture, even though its a bit faint?

    Yes, I can see you are busy. I am too. Perhaps we’ll discuss it further another day. By the way I do agree with the passage in Corinthians you cited, but not with how the priests behave regarding it. It is quite safe to give holy communion with the practice of self analysis, and with living out the holy sacrament or one’s best, not keeping it in and unexpressed, for goodness withheld does the harm, but expressed does good, and practiced with confession so as not to hide our failings and make them blocks to the light and goodness, but bring them into light and dissolve them. That prevents the contrast that does the harm. Contrast is the killer. Firing up the conscience and the heart while not living it out causes contrast and much ill health through soul, mind and body. Does your priest teach you this, the reason why? Does he even know. I wonder. For by not teaching people how to take communion and the supportive practices that must go with it, and just withholding it from them because they are not of his church, then he is not living out his own light and is doing to himself what the scripture warns about. That is why I reminded you of the rule about correlation/contradiction; there are surrounding understandings that can reveal a clearer picture, eliminate apparent contradictions and identify the causal arrow. Another day though. When we are both less busy.

    • Oh crossbow, I’ve said it before and must repeat – i adore the way you explain what is obvious to me, and what I try in my layman’s terms to put to others; and the beautiful, gentle, poetical manner you employ The ‘rules’ you speak of have always rung loud and clear to me (without ‘religious’ or ‘church’ upbringing – I only repeat this bit because I want those who think ‘religious’ people are all indoctrinated, to think again). Is there any book or school of thought which you have often read from? I know we all learn from here and there, but have you used any in particular? I have read this manner of speech in some of my searches but wondered if you have a particular source as i like the combination of practical speech (including ‘blunt’ 🙂 ), and soft poetical speech? i realise it may be (some, certainly), of your own doing and congratulate you for it. But do answer my question, sometime please.
      BTW, I thought, like Eric, that you were perhaps a female due to your soft touch. Men, can, it seems, more readily, be rude with their ‘bluntness’, verging on arrogance, though, it seems to be a more modern phenomena, with both sexes). I’m not keen on it and do my very best to avoid it. And, i realise that your words ‘we are men’ may only be referring to maturity or mankind. Don’t forget my question, amongst all this less important stuff!

  222. My goodness, another one who thought I am a woman!
    And as for being gentle and poetic in speech – well, I haven’t been told that before. In fact I know many who say quite unsavoury things about me. But a good man should have enemies, and I am pleased to have some, especially of the type they are. I do admit that I am frequently told that I speak clearly. It took some tuition and practice to learn how to do it though. And I know many men who can communicate far far clearer than I can. I have a long way to go.

    You ask: “Is there any book or school of thought which you have often read from? I know we all learn from here and there, but have you used any in particular?”

    In past decades (last century) I read many spiritual/occult/religious books, and books on a wide variety of subjects. Nowadays I enjoy reading the bible mostly, and the dictionary and thesaurus. I also read the news and a few websites, like this one. Eric is assisting my learning about Orthodox Christianity and some other things. I also learn from the commenters.

    I have worked in fields that have helped me develop communication skills. Nursing; medical, palliative, acute psychiatric. Counselling; general, drug & alcohol, forensic. Private business; personal defence and security, contracted specialist programs. Trades, factories, hospitality, outdoor labouring,…… and in many environments, with wide diversity of people. These environments, and others not mentioned, have helped me learn about people and practice communication. People, both individuals and groups, have taught me much. But I have had good tuition and guidance along the way too, and much of my knowledge has come from prayer and contemplation, and from what is possible from there. And much of what I have learnt has come from lucky decisions, that is, decisions I made, of which I could not foresee the benefit to come. And, of course, much learning has come from struggles, hardship, foolishness and error, even from times of madness, blessings in disguise. Thankfulness is a great teacher too. It opens up the heart to the lessons all around us, and within our experiences. And thankfulness never forgets.

    Does that answer your questions?

    • crossbow, i have previously told you that you speak in an ‘almost’ poetical manner. My father (earthly) was a gently spoken man and i adore it in all ‘men’, male or female, as i see it in humble people. And, yes, i have learnt in eactly the same ways, except for never having had a paid ‘profession’. i hope to quickly respond to Openobserver now as i see he’s replied to Eric (and it crosses my post a bit0, but then (if not beofre), i must walk the dog in the hills of Wales ‘from whence cometh my help’! Thanks for a full answer. I love you too! 🙂 Enemies turn us into pearls -eventually! 🙂 (I know you know it).

    • Openobserver, i just thought (while making dinner) – this should make my point clearer to you (but please don’t use it to evade my former questions, else we’ll get nowhere) – It appears to me that you are willing to accept in IT what you do not (quite rightfully with limited understanding), accept from a loving God. This would be clear inconsistentcy and contradictory..

    • A decisive stroke, that could have been delivered earlier. But then the debate/argument may not have ensued, and that would be a miss.

    • Interesting comment from you crossbow. I could not have delivered it earlier as it took the time to find it.,or, at least, to find the way to express it. As you’ve rightly stated before but with alternative words ‘There is a time and a place for everything’. I have found that those who give up too early have their ego (at that time), stopping them from continuing. I think this is also intentional, not on their part but on the part of the ‘great spirit’. And this is why he makes it that things we arrive in their due course. We need not be concerned about anything. ALL things work for the good of God. (This is why I have put my opinion here earlier on, that i have no anxiety (Eric’s article on such) and that no-one need to either – best not start it up again though eh!). God (the great/supreme spirit), has the whole world (universe) in his hands. I know you will agree, it’s just great to share it again and again 🙂 Another blessing coming your way, I’m sure! (Oh, now where’s that ‘Post comment’ box disappeared to yet again – I’ll try the options! C’est la vie!)

  223. Dear Openobserver (sincerely),
    In a few days, hopefully, you’ll find time to read and respond to this: Your words “Yes, I did my open observing and eventually accepted that which resonates as consistency and truth to me.” If you have indeed eventually accepted your own opinion, why are you here (on Eric’s site). (Bit of a rhetorical question, I think, for you to think about, if not to answer – it is not really important).

    Beyond this, and more importantly, why would the ONE you speak of, (backed by others), want to bring about something more limited than its own original self? (Which confirms your thoughts as limited and therefore should not be accepted yet, especially as you say, you are ‘a God’ and therefore, capable of knowing more, here on earth as Jesus told us). Or, why would the One you speak of want to have expressed the painful horror we have on earth. That makes no sense to me, does it to you, if so how do you make sense out of your words? BTW, I have not asked you why you would not accept my religion – I have asked you to look at, and respon to, what appears as your own inconsistency and contradictions.

  224. The above debate provides an interesting case study on human thinking, as most debates and conflicts do. It holds many examples of common patterns, errors, oversights, and poor and good tactics.

    To discuss such magnitudes and subtleties – to even be able to think about them clearly – one must clearly define one’s terms. Definitions are the building blocks of clear thought; and enable reason, and reasoning together.

    I expect it would be interesting to sit as a group at a table and objectively analyse the script, using it as a learning example, as judo players, boxers, chess players and military officers study the details of previous contests and conflicts, noting the errors, the better moves, and the missed opportunities. The study of conflict is the study of life.

    Personally, I don’t see Larry’s and Eric’s views as starkly contradictory to one another. The surface details are, of course, but not the substance underneath. There is a perspective and scope from which they can be seen to overlap and meld. It is the characters that contrast more than their views.

    • By the way, I wonder if it is possible and might be worth trialling removal of the nested(?) reply function to previous comments, so that comments flow in sequential order down the page, as they do on forum threads, making the flow of debates easier to follow. It would mean responders would have to cite or quote the comment they are referring to.

    • ‘Sequential order’ – Yes, sounds good to me and worth a try. It may, of course, be down to WordPress. I also thought yesterday, that i wished I could (perhaps we can & I’m not yet aware), simply click on a person and see all their posts in that article, so I could find it more readily. Another option, maybe?

    • Like your post again crossbow. I wonder if ther’s a clearly written book on the subject. Never-the-less, as you’ve presented your personal view, i will add mine to it. I agree with all you say,but, our thinking affects our choice of words and our tactics ,for the better or worse. As I repeatedly say, it will work out in the end, and so, on that level (ultimate matters), it is of no concern.However, if someone professes to understand anything more than those they are communicating with, yet, do not stay the course (persevere-for Eric’s sake), of their own making, it does show lack of willpower. That ultimately, does not matter either, but, in this world, it does delay heaven on earth. For that reason, i ‘cry’ with Jesus because it causes pain to those who do not yet understand. Am I being clear about my view?

    • Thanks crossbow – i see straight away that my response did not sequentially follow your post, even though i almost certainly clicked the Reply button on your comment. This (as you’ve said before), does not help one to follow. But, I also see that i ought to have copied and pasted the particular comment of yours which i was responding to, in order to make it relate for you, so this is it:

      “Personally, I don’t see Larry’s and Eric’s views as starkly contradictory to one another. The surface details are, of course, but not the substance underneath. There is a perspective and scope from which they can be seen to overlap and meld. It is the characters that contrast more than their views.”

      The most pertinent part of my reply again, for your convenience:
      “if someone professes to understand anything more than those they are communicating with, yet, do not stay the course (persevere-for Eric’s sake), of their own making, it does show lack of willpower. That ultimately, does not matter either, but, in this world, it does delay heaven on earth. ” This is the problem which arises from the differences, whatever you put them down to.

      Does this now enable you to see what I’m talking about? If not, I’ll leave it there, if you don’t mind, at least for the time being, (and think more next time), unless you particularly want to hear. Thanks for helping me, much appreciated.

  225. There are two reasons for asking questions.
    1. To receive information
    2. To encourage thought in a particular direction.

    Similarly with making statements. They may be made to impart information, or to prompt thought in a particular direction.

    • crossbow, as you’ve not posted your bit about questions and statements in ‘Reply’ to any particular person, it makes your purpose less evident. If we direct to a particular person we make our purpose more evident AND open it up for anyone else. It therefore serves a greater purpose. So, with regard to questions and answers to prompt thought in a particular direction, i would add that it is always even better if the prompt is responded to, since this likewise serves a greater purpose – 1. We know if the prompt has been responded to (that’s useful) 2. We discover if the responder(s) know it already (and did not need it), thereby we learn about the responder (for future reference (and less time/effort waste/confusion). 3. We may get a prompt back which makes us think more than we had done previously. By following up ideas directly to their source we not only get our own purpose across better (without loss elsewhere), we also find much much more, and thereby, better ourselves and all others much, much more. Hence, I do not know exactly your purpose in stating this about questions and answers, I am already aware of the information you have imparted (can’t speak for others), and i have responded appropriately, with a view to helping somewhere. 🙂

  226. Sorry but I could not let this pass without comment.

    “It appears to me that you are willing to accept in IT what you do not (quite rightfully with limited understanding), accept from a loving God. This would be clear inconsistency and contradictory.”

    No contradiction here at all. We are talking about two entirely different kinds of suffering. One is the temporal physical suffering while the one I consider a blatant contradiction to love is the eternal suffering of the spirit being. Of course, I accept that love is allowing the suffering of the physical body but that is quite different from the eternal suffering of the spirit being which I know does not exist.

    The question then is, why does love allow even this physical suffering. I do not claim to know the answer but have a thought or two I will share. First I do not accept the religious version that God gave us freedom and we suffer because we misused it, which is the age old karma concept. If that was the case then why do good people suffer as much as bad ones do? Christians with all their upright living, endless prayers, etc. suffer just as many dreadful diseases, horrible accidents, the same life span, etc. as the rest of the world. As I have stated, I do not believe physicality is real but a dream from which we will awaken and will be very thankful for the suffering we encountered during our brief physical experience. One cannot appreciate happiness without having experienced unhappiness, pleasure without pain, etc. Perhaps it makes our eternal bliss more blissful in knowing what freedom from duality really is. I do not claim to know how Source allocates pain and pleasure but know that it is for our eternal benefit.

    • Openobserver, further to my last response to you. I asked you if you want to continue communicating privately and only suggested that there is no point to publishing our private communication on eric’s site for the persoanl reason of your own whcih can much more readily be stated here if you wish), because we have benn discussing matters which apparently do not exist in traditional christian understanding and serve no purpose here. I also said thay can all be published here if it serves a purpose other than your non-related personal one. So you have baffled me in this apparently poinless exercise. Come clean please, what’s your motivation? If you just want to cover your own disappearance from here just get back on with humility, but don’t involve me without explanation to me, at least why you want me to go over it all again in any are which does not relate to it.
      @Eric -I’m sorry this has been brought on your site. Perhaps i/we all will discover? I’ve had to reply here as what is apparently my words has been brought up again here by my friend, Openobserver, after he and i have already dealt with it. I’m don’t know what Oo is doing with this, but, I won’t be replying until he explains. Perhaps the bait is for you (I’m the bait apparently)..

    • Openobserver – I think i’ve worked it out. You see, you apparently didn’t click on the Reply to my comment so the emails arrive as -Openobserver replied to Eric Hyde (not to me as they should if you’d clicked the reply on my comment). So, now, i think your starting apology is perhaps intended for me? Then you followed with your reply just to show that you had a reply (even though you and i have dealt with it). I must say, if i’ve now got it, that’s a strange way to go about it.

  227. Openobserver – Are those quoted words that you responding to mine? They look like mine but I can’t find them in order to check for sure). Eric wrote along the same line to you and we (you and me are still corresponding privately, as far as i know as there’s no reply from you to my last one). I think perhaps my suggesting that we have completed our need to converse (drawn from your last reply to mine), may have provoked you to put this one on Eric’s site (due to other purposes of yours, said to me privately)? If so, why would i need to go over it again on this site just to show that our personal communication has been completed? Why don’t you just say what you told me about opting out of here, there’s nothing wrong in that? If you sincerely want another reply from me,pleae be clear. If your motivation is to get a reply from Eric or others, please be clear. I’m not going into it again unless i am reassured, from you, what you are after by posting it again on here. Or, get back to me personally. Regards,Dichasium. (Maybe they are not my words, but, without finding themat hand here, i believe they are). Perhaps you could have warned me before so i wouldn’t need to ask?

  228. “…If that was the case then why do good people suffer as much as bad ones do?”
    The same reason that people higher up a ladder struggle to climb their steps as much as people lower on the ladder struggle to climb their steps.

    • Actually I essentially agree with that assessment. We are what we are and religious views has little to do with suffering. Unless, of course, one believes only Christians are going to Heaven and God is sending the rest of his creation to hell even though many of them are just as sincere as any Christian in wishing to serve and please God. Their beliefs were simply conditioned by a different culture.

  229. Dear (L) Openobserver – Re. Your latest reply to me via our personal emails (hidden from others). I won’t post it, but others now ought to be able to see where I am with you after your sudden jump back in with my comment which I’d already dealt with, to you personally.
    You are now being economical with the truth – It was not merely your response to ‘a’ comment. It was the one I wrote and we have already discussed to full conclusion. Hence I had no idea why you’d suddenly appeared, out-of-the-blue again, on Eric’s site with an old response to me. What did it mean? Who was it intended for? Am I intended to reply for you – I wanted to assist but I couldn’t put in the work, (over and above what I’d already said to you on this), if it was not for me. I needed to ask, and to explain what confusion had made me ask! Especially knowing something else you’d said. I eventually concluded that you’d used me as a back way in to provoke others, (for genuine debate or competition, I do not know).

    To avoid making this confusion and to consider me, there were other options, but you just rushed in without thought. In nothing more than my keenness to oblige, I replied to show you that i was baffled and that I needed you to explain whether you want something else from me, or was it just to provoke others (in which case, I wonder, why didn’t you stay the course beforehand – this is the second of your returns after opting out – like a ‘Jack-in-the-Box).

    You ask what am I talking about, but, evidently, do not really want to know, (though I’ve tried again to show you here), and hence your rude beginning, denial of the confusion you’ve caused, and your curt (out of keeping), ‘goodby’ I do not resort to rudeness and bad manners, as this shows disrespect to others (and more about oneself). It does not bring us towards Love, which you say is your path.

    It is sad for you to get bad mannered, as it had been good till then. 😦

    Au revoir, if that’s the way you want it – but I’m always open to civil conversation. Karen.
    Very best wishes whatever you choose to do in your life.

  230. “Openob, has the IT ever imagined anything that is real?

    Since you said we are aspects of IT’s imagination, yet we are not real, that would mean aspects of IT’s consciousness is not real.”

    Only Consciousness is real, that being knowing and awareness. All else including physicality is mere projection or illusion. All that is real is eternal, physicality is temporal, constantly changing, comes and goes. Are we real? Only as Consciousness in limited version temporarily experiencing physicality and duality . I believe such is the only means of expression for Consciousness. The body and brain are not real but physical objects through which C experiences form.

    Really guys, if you truly want answers please check out scienceandnonduality.com. There you will find much more intelligent answers than I am capable of offering.

    • I have checked out the website. It is interesting. I find it compatible with Christianity. It certainly does not explain why you would be so anti-Christian.

      Islam’s scripture contains page after page of commandments to wage war on and kill non-believers, and its apostates have to go into hiding to avoid being murdered. And yet you rail against Christianity, whose central teaching of its scripture is to love, forgive and be charitable to all people, including one’s enemies.

    • Crossbow claims: “Islam’s scripture contains page after page of commandments to wage war on and kill non-believers,”

      Now, I’ve never read the Koran so I have no idea if what you allege is true or just another exaggeration.

      So I did a Google search to see who is talking about this issue with knowledge and evidence.

      The results:

      The passage most often quoted is the fifth verse of the ninth sura, long known to Muslims as the “Sword verse.” It was cited by Osama bin Laden in a famous manifesto issued in 1996, and on first reading it does seem to say that bin Laden would be justified in hunting down any non-Muslim on the planet. The verse is often translated colloquially—particularly on these right-wing Web sites—as “kill the infidels wherever you find them.”
      This common translation is wrong. The verse doesn’t actually mention “infidels” but rather refers to “those who join other gods with God”—which is to say, polytheists. So, bin Laden notwithstanding, the “Sword verse” isn’t the strongest imaginable basis for attacking Christians and Jews.

      In short, “kill the polytheists wherever you find them” doesn’t mean “kill the polytheists wherever you find them.” It means “kill the polytheists who aren’t on your side in this particular war.”…

      http://www.evolutionofgod.net/question_koran

      The context of violent passages is more ambiguous than might be expected of a perfect book from a loving God, however this can work both ways. Most of today’s Muslims exercise a personal choice to interpret their holy book’s call to arms according to their own moral preconceptions about justifiable violence. Apologists cater to their preferences with tenuous arguments that gloss over historical fact and generally do not stand up to scrutiny. Still, it is important to note that the problem is not bad people, but bad ideology.

      http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

      Why does the Quran say that infidels should be killed?

      The verse of the Holy Quran is often mentioned to malign Islam. The verse does not say infidels it says idolaters. (9:5) And when the forbidden months have passed, kill the idolaters wherever you find them and take them prisoners, and beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent and observe Prayer and pay the Zakat, then leave their way free. Surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.

      This verse, chapter 9 verse 5, is often used as evidence that Islam allows killing of non-Muslims, but what is not recognized is the context and history behind these verses.

      https://www.alislam.org/egazette/updates/why-does-the-quran-say-that-infidels-should-be-killed/

      Where in the Quran does it say that non-believers must be killed?

      I have finished reading the Quran and it is a wonderful narrative, same as the Bible. But nowhere do I see the duty to kill non-believers. Can someone tell me, chapter and verse, where the Quran demands by God the killing of non-believers…men, women or children?

      http://www.quora.com/Where-in-the-Quran-does-it-say-that-non-believers-must-be-killed

      Does the Quran Really Sanction Violence Against ‘Unbelievers’?

      Recently some prominent talk-show hosts, Sean Hannity among them, have been referring to certain verses in the Quran that appear to call for Muslims to kill non-Muslims. These verses have too often been quoted with what appears to be a willful disregard for the context in which they occur, thus inflaming the emotions of listeners, perpetuating grave misunderstandings, and contributing to the potential for violence on all sides.

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kabir-helminski/does-the-quran-really-adv_b_722114.html

    • Crossbow, I’m not anti Christian, I simply do not believe it represents truth. And yes, Christianity’s central teaching is love but in my view the God represented by the Bible and the belief is anything but. If the teachings conform to your concept of what love is, that is fine. The fact that Christianity is very exclusive, to me, does not reflect love.

      As far as I’m concerned, the belief is very easily proved false simply by the fact that there are so many differing views as to what constitutes salvation whose adherents are all equally sincere and all believe the others are hell bound. As I have said here before, love would not leave salvation in uncertain terms. Reminds me of a quote, “Everyone is going to hell according to someone’s belief”.

      I love all regardless of beliefs but that doesn’t mean that I accept the other beliefs. We each accept that which resonates with our own logic. I do not look down on the others because I know that we are all simply at different levels on our way to greater understanding and will all get there when the time is right.

      Yes, the website is interesting and yes it accepts people of all beliefs but I don’t think you will find the website advocating separation or belief in a separate judging/condemning God which is the basic Christian belief. In saying that I sincerely I hope I don’t turn you off from it and I hope you will simply explore it more deeply and will be interested in your take on it on down the road. I’m not suggesting you question your faith but just explore what is being shared there.

    • I thought this was worth throwing in.

      Does Christianity ever advocate or condone killing non-believers?

      The New Testament focuses heavily on cheek-turning and peace-making. But there are passages in the Old Testament, e.g.

      Deuteronomy 17:
      2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,
      3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
      4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
      5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

      The Christian relationship to the Old Testament is kind of confusing. It’s often cited as the Old Law that Jesus came to fulfill, relieving (for example) the dietary requirements, and lets you treat passages like this one as no longer relevant. But Christians often cite Old Testament laws (for example, on homosexuality) so it can be a little hard to tell precisely what they believe.

      There are also New Testament passages cited as justification to kill non-believers, e.g.

      Luke 19:27:
      But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

      As well as Matthew 10:34:
      Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

      The Bible is a long, complex document with many conflicting interpretations. You can find text to justify practically anything, and people have. Mainstream Christianity focuses largely on the peaceful message of the New Testament, though obviously some today and throughout history have used it in much more violent ways.

      http://www.quora.com/Does-Christianity-ever-advocate-or-condone-killing-non-believers

      What the Bible says about Non-Christians

      They are without God.
      “Whosoever … abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.” — 2 John 9
      They are all antichrists.
      “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.” — 2 John 7
      They should be shunned. Neither marry nor be friends with them.
      “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? … Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord.” — 2 Cor.6:14-17
      They should be killed.
      “If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you … Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die.” — Dt.13:6-10

      http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/nonchristians.html

    • Lloyd Lofthouse – If one accepts that Christ came to put an end to the confused ones and those who seek to confuse (ie., ‘the blind leading the blind’), all these issues can be seen for the confusion they are. Stick with Jesus, seek the meaning of his words (which are evident and confirmed everywhere), and the confusion is cleared. Trust, faith and belief is gained. – True Christianity, not the’ wolves in sheep’s clothing.’

    • Since Jesus Christ never wrote anything down that he said in his talks, how many of the Gospels (that weren’t written until decades after his reported death) were written by his followers who heard him say those words?

      Although some scholars disagree, the vast majority of researchers believe that Mark was the first Gospel to be written, sometime around the year 70. This scholarly consensus holds that the Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke were composed, independently of one another, sometime in the 80s or 90s.

      The Dating of the Gospels: (Watch the video. The first Gospel was written about forty years after Christ’s reported death.)

      http://www.bc.edu/schools/stm/c21online/resources/birthofjesus/intro/the_dating_of_thegospels.html

      In addition, How Can Two Witnesses See the Same Event Differently?

      What is the takeaway with regard to the Gospel accounts of Jesus’s life, death, and resurrection? We should expect divergences in the accounts if they are truthful. This is the complete opposite expectation of the skeptic, who expects that the accounts be practically identical if they are truthful. The skeptic, in the end, simply does not understand the nature of eyewitness testimony, and therefore demands something of the Gospel accounts that should never be there, if they are true. – See more at: http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2013/06/21/how-can-two-witnesses-see-the-same-event-differently-part-2/#sthash.TpNJqOVZ.dpuf

      Why should we care about Wallace’s thoughts on this subject? Because skeptics regularly accuse the Gospel accounts of being manufactured because they contain divergent details. But Wallace points out that there are divergent details because we are dealing with multiple eyewitnesses who see things from their own perspective. If the Gospels all said exactly the same thing, in all the details, then we would have serious reason to doubt that they came from multiple eyewitness sources. – See more at: http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2013/06/26/what-should-we-expect-if-the-new-testament-accounts-are-from-multiple-eyewitnesses/#sthash.ivNgmnlg.dpuf

    • Lloyd Lofthouse, Thanks – As usual, at the mo., I’m rushing a quickie. I’ve not had time to read much of what you say, (am already aware of the basics opinions), so, just quickly to say. I do not especially concern myself with who said what, i just look for consistency in truth (ie., it resonates with my inner spirit and my worldy experiences). Therefore, i, rather than send you everything you’ve sent me, and every thought i’ve ever had!!!!!!!, I merely refer to the words attributed to a man called Jesus. Ok, I think I’ve explained it quickly, hope that does the trick ie., clarifies my position so that we are linking better. Bye for now.

    • “I merely refer to the words attributed to a man called Jesus.”

      I understand—the words shared by those who heard him speak but written down decades later. Oh, how frail and flawed human memory is. Did you know that modern research has revealed that when we sleep we are capable of revising our own memories and even creating new ones that we never experienced in real life.

      I think Jesus Christ was real and he preached as a Jewish Rabi what he thought was the right way to live life but I distrust all those who followed in his name.

      Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

      Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many

    • Lloyd (I assume i can drop the surname?), All in your comment is absolutely true (as far as i am concerned). But, everything depends on meaning, and, as you rightly say, words can be manipulated in many ways. So, as you do not know me from Adam, here is what i mean (at least, we’ll see if words alone can be adequate for us, this time).
      I believe according to my own experience (whilst listening to all, and keeping an open mind, of course). I have long since recognised from my own experience, the truth (as I see it), in the words of Jesus, regarding the nature of people and nature generally. It has taken me a lifetime though (till only recent weeks), to develop faith in the part he mentions about ‘Our Father’. As far as I’m concerned this all powerful force can be called what you like, but it is Love. I think the confused parts of religion are merely due to our juvenile understanding, which we all develop at different times in different ways.
      Has this helped you to understand my meanings and where i am coming from? If not, I have masses and masses of patience, if anyone wants it (though time can be pushed, now and again).
      Ps. Remember re. the truth becoming evident -the evidence of anyone’s words/deeds can become apparent in another time (out of our own one). We must first learn to trust ourselves, else we will be misled by many.

    • Here’s my thinking

      Each individual is responsible, and will pay the price when judged after death, for the choices they make or don’t make during their mortal life.

      If an individual chooses to join a religion and let the leader of that region tell them how to think and live their lives—for instance, the Catholic Pope—then that individual will have to accept their fate after death when God decides what to do with them.

      The best choice is probably to develop an individual relationship with God even if that God is part of each individual just like the devil is.

      The interesting think is that in the Old Testament God makes it clear that no one can speak for Him.

    • Lloyd -absolutley spot on, I’d say. Love (God), is capable of turning the devil back to Love, In His DUE COURSE. God’s love is unbeatable and gentle. God will turn stone bacK into love from whence it came. And God will not hurt anyone more than they can stand – despite what it appears like to us.
      Am I getter clearer still?

    • I understand, and it would work fine except for the fact that we can’t change what other people love and some of those people want to take everything we own (they are in love with their own greed) from us while others want to kill us (they worship another god) and they will do so claiming it is the will of their god.

    • Lloyd -By the way, Jesus did not speak ‘FOR’ God. He spoke OF God, (and, only if you like (trust yourself), – on behalf of God (omnipotent Love).

    • Lloyd, our messages have crossed. Let’s see if i can catch up. Mostly it’s covered in my last one but here goes: Re.your latest one – That’s fine, so you should speak to God yourself. But don’t forget to thank those who help you. If you dont think Jesus has helped you in any way then don’t thank him or acknowledge his words. That’s fine.

      On the first one of the last two: Of course we can’t change what others do. We are not quite God with His magnitude of ability and sense of scale and time – leave it to God Lloyd. And remember, you don’t want others, (including Jesus), to make you do what they say either. ‘Do unto others as you’d have them do unto you’.

    • crossbow – this may help – roughly speaking, one of the things I, and apparently Openobserver, (you’d need to confirm this) , do not agree with in the realm of Christianity, is guilt, judgement and hell. They (as normally described -to create fear), are not compatible with the concept of love.(sorry if it’s already been said – I’ve not got around to reading the recent posts).

    • Crossbow-I just thought to add that I do not have any issue with Christianity – I believe it just to be a question of interpretation. For me the killing/death of sin is the death of sin in the world but not as in the death of the individual. ‘God’ (Love) will save all in due course.Love is benevolent and omnipotent. ALL things work for the good of God (Love). I just needed to clarify my position.

  231. Lloyd Lofthouse, Thoroughly enjoyed your posts both on Islam and the OT and Christianity. I learned from it. You bring out some very relevant points particularly how the religions gloss over the repugnant, while preaching and focusing on the pleasant or more acceptable. Except it seems that many Muslims do the opposite focusing on violence.

    And yes, the OT in many places portrays a very vicious unloving God who ordered the total destruction of neighboring communities because they were worshiping false gods, etc. He didn’t seem interested in bringing the message to them but just demanded their annihilation. This seems ridiculous to me, no one is foolish enough to knowingly worship a false God. Those people were innocent and just as interested in serving God as any but were just doing it the only way they knew how. God demanded they kill every living thing, children, animals and all. This is as bad or worse than Isis and yet we make it fit our concept of love. I think this proves that the Bible was written by very aggressive men and certainly not men lovingly inspired.

    • What I think is missing most of the time in modern day interpretations of the Bible and probably the Koran is the historical and cultural context of the people in the Old and New Testament during those times..

      For instance, how many Jewish people converted to Christianity or were most Christians pagans who converted from their old gods to the new—I think these people are, better known as gentiles? In addition, the people who wrote both the Old and New Testament came from cultures that didn’t think as literally as we do in the United States today. Their language and thinking was figurative in nature and not literal. Literal translations of the Old and New Testament are going to make a lot of errors in what was probably meant.

      I read that in the time of Christ it was common for Jews to call God Father. God the Father is a title given to God in various religions. In Judaism, God is described as “Father” as he is seen as the absolute one, indivisible and incomparable, transcendent, immanent, and non-corporeal God of creation and history. The God in Judaism is the giver of the shabbath and the torahs—written, oral, mystical—to his chosen people. However, in Judaism the use of the “Father” title is generally a metaphor and is one of many titles by which Jews speak of and to God.

      Considering that Christ who was a Jew might have been using Father the same way most if not all Jews use or used the term Father to refer to God casts doubt on the claims that Jesus Christ was actually the son of God.

      In fact, in its very earliest days, Christianity was seen by the Jewish teachers as a Jewish heresy; its adherents were Jews who believed in the divinity of Christ [and considered Christianity a Jewish sect]. But when Christianity spread and became a world religion, with numerous converts from the Gentile world, it became a rival religion to Judaism. Christians were then seen as Gentiles not because they were Christians but because, in the main, they were, in fact, Gentiles (i.e. not Jewish).

      In the Talmud and midrash, the comparatively few references to Christianity (these only appear in uncensored versions) are to this religion as a heretical sect believing in a form of dualism, God the Father and God the Son.

      And Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic Prophecies, but to get around this Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming.

      Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists in the Old Testament.

      To me, this sounds like the Christians revised the Old Testament to fit the New. To make this work, they also changed the meaning of one word.

      The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an “alma” as giving birth. The word “alma” has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as “virgin.” This accords Jesus’ birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

      Christianity, with all of its saints filling the jobs once held by all the pagan gods, has always been a pagan religion in disguise.

      Christianity has even defied the Ten Commandments with the image of Jesus Christ on the Cross and the images of all the saints.

      3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

      4″You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

      5″You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,…

      In Exodus 32:8, it says, They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, ‘These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.’

      Exodus 34:17 – Do not make any idols.

      Leviticus 19:4 – Do not turn to idols or make metal gods for yourselves. I am the LORD your God

      There’s a lot more all the way to Ezekiel 20:7

      And I said to them, “Each of you, get rid of the vile images you have set your eyes on, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.”

    • Furthermore, I was not too surprised to find that the idea of a dying and resurrecting godman had its beginning in pagan mythology hundreds of years before the time of Christ. According to the book, “Jesus and the Lost Goddess” by Timothy Freke, regional variations of the myths were found throughout the ancient world. In Egypt he was known as Osiris, in Greece as Dionysus, in Syria as Adonis, in Asia Minor as Attis, in Mesopotamia as Marduk, and in Persia as Mithras and others. I quote from page 18:

      “The myths of the Pagan Godman describe a ‘Son of God’, born to a virgin on 25 December, who dies at Easter through Crucifixion, but who resurrects on the third day. He is a prophet who offers his followers the chance to be born again through the rites of baptism.”

      “He is a wonder-worker who raises the dead and miraculously turns water into wine at a marriage ceremony. He is a savior who offers his followers redemption through partaking in a meal of bread and wine, symbolic of his body and blood.”

      It seems quite implausible to me that God would follow an old pagan myth almost to the letter in His plan of salvation. I know the apologetics find ways to “make it work”, but the fact remains that many very similar versions of the Christ story existed many years before Jesus.

    • Wasn’t Halloween also a pagan celebration along with the Santa Claus.myth?

      Here’s a post about Paganism and Christianity. I’m not sure I can add a link here but it was at Grace Communion International dot org and the title was Paganism – Where Should Christians Draw the Line?

      Conclusion:

      “Paganism is an emotion-laden subject. Conservative Christians have a history of being dogmatic, legalistic, and of misusing the Scriptures when we argue our point. With that history, of course, it is impossible to discuss this subject without somebody disagreeing. Each person thinks himself to be properly balanced — but each person’s balance point is different. Equally sincere people draw lines in different places. What then are we to do?

      “Should the church legislate about which practices are OK and which are not? That is not our commission. We are not in the Talmud business. Each Christian should draw his or her own lines, and be tolerant of those who draw different lines. Do not judge your brother, Paul says (Romans 14:5-13). That is one of the most difficult commandments in the entire Bible!

      “No one has to participate in Christmas or Easter, but we should not condemn those who do. Some will do it one way and some will do it another. Whether you participate or whether you abstain, do it all to the Lord, and let him be the judge. This is the Christian approach to the cultural situation today.”

  232. Anyone who wishes to compare Islam to Christianity can do so first hand instead of quoting joe blow sources.

    The koran and hadith are available for anyone to study, as is Islamic tradition and practice. I would encourage anyone who wants to know something to go to the source and learn it first hand. Information is not knowledge.

    One might begin by reading the koran and mark with a coloured sticky note (lets say red) every sentence where Mohammed commands muslims to wage war on and kill non-muslims.

    One might then read the koran through again, marking with a different coloured sticky note (say blue) every sentence where Muhammad tells Muslims to love and live in peace with non-Muslims.

    Here and there the reader will note sentences advising reasonable treatments of others, even kind treatments, but take notice of who those sentences are saying to treat well – is it non-muslims or is it other muslims? And be sure to compare how the other group are to be treated.

    That exercise will provide a fair idea of whether the koran mostly commands love and peace towards non-muslims, or hatred war.

    And at the end of the exercise how many of each colour sticky note will your koran have sticking out from its pages? and will they be mostly the blue ones or the red ones? Will they be mostly the ones marking incitement to war, hatred and murder, or the ones marking encouragement of love and goodwill towards others?

    Of course I know the answer because I know my koran very well indeed. I won’t spoil the ending for you by telling you which colour sticky notes your Koran will be bristling with, I will leave that up to you as an honest investigator to find out for yourself, but I will say that by the end of the exercise you will have used only one colour of stick notes; the other colour will not be used at all. And the great number of sticky notes of the colour that got used might surprise. You will find that your Koran is either bristling with incitement to hatred and war, or with encouragement to love and goodwill. Whoever wants to can find out for your self.

    For comparison one might also like to do the same exercise with the Christian gospels too. Mark everywhere Jesus commands Christians to murder (no Lloyd, the parables regarding making good use of one’s individual resources, or causing others to sin, are not a kill command – I’m referring to actual commandments to kill) and also mark everywhere he teaches love, forgiveness and charity towards others. Then look at the coloured tags sticking out of your koran and your bible and compare. Of course such an exercise is an incomplete study, but it does provide one with a first hand and reasonable comparison of these two religions and how they each say others should be treated.

    I have read the koran cover to cover several times. My koran is as worn as my bible. And have studied the Christian, Taoist, Buddhist, Hindu, and Jewish scriptures and their associated customs and practices. And am quite familiar with the indigenous religions of Australia and the South Pacific, and many assorted sects and lesser group beliefs. I did this partly for interest and partly to better understand others. I am not limited to theoretical study without true life learning to go with it, that is not learning much at all. I have worked with and counselled diverse people, including muslim apostates and torture victims in protective custody, and those who would leave Islam but dare not. I have interviewed them, listened to their stories, read their records, and know their situation.

    Here’s another fun exercise that will provide an indication of comparative Christian and Islamic propensity towards violence against non-believers: One could make a T-shirt with a design insulting Jesus and wear it while walking alone through a Christian neighbourhood for a week and see what happens. Then make a T-shirt insulting Muhammad and wear it while walking alone through an Islamic neighbourhood for a week and see what happens.
    Perhaps Lloyd Lofthouse would like to do that exercise and let us know how he goes.

  233. Eric & All, I find this to be a fitting place and time to say something (i may have hinted at it before but the time is even more pertinent now).
    The place is fitting because of the article title and the time is fitting in view of all the posts till now 23 May 2015. So:

    Many years ago, being puzzled by all the pain we cause each other simply from our differences of opinion, I looked for the roots of the word ‘Religion’. I found that ‘ligion’ was connected to ‘legion’, meaning many or group. ‘Re’ of course approximates to ‘again, ‘going back’ (like the Prodigal son), etc. From this, I see ‘Religion’ as our move back towards reuniting, from division to a whole. Wonderful, I think! This breakdown of the word incorporates absolutely everything, and could, if used, prevent all the pain caused between people from their personal preferences/opinions. Hope that many of us will remember this definition of the word ‘Religion’, use it well, and spread it far.
    Thanks for the space Eric to voice this and thanks to anyone listening, especially those agreeing, and those who don’t agree, may well come to, later, God/It willing, and,my good friends, I’m sure He/It is.. 🙂 Love,Dichasium.

  234. The seeker is he who is in search of himself.
    Give up all questions except one: ‘Who am I?’ After all, the only fact you are sure of is that you are. The ‘I am’ is certain. The ‘I am this’ is not. Struggle to find out what you are in reality.
    To know what you are, you must first investigate and know what you are not.
    Discover all that you are not — body, feelings thoughts, time, space, this or that — nothing, concrete or abstract, which you perceive can be you. The very act of perceiving shows that you are not what you perceive.
    The clearer you understand on the level of mind you can be described in negative terms only, the quicker will you come to the end of your search and realise that you are the limitless being.
    Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj I AM THAT

  235. As far as the various scriptures, Holy Books, etc. are concerned, what speaks much louder is the way the adherents treat their fellowman and the inner peace they reflect.

    • Spot on Openobserver1 Let’s do it. Look into all places for encouragement, if you need it. If not needed, then let’s prove it! 🙂

  236. Openobserver, you speak of consciousness as being the great reality, and of permeating all existence, even rocks, trees and motor cars. Your words evident someone who finds the idea appealing, in whom the idea rings as true. If it is true that consciousness is as all pervasive and ever extensive as existence, and as you yourself are a portion of consciousness, turn your consciousness in upon yourself, go within yourself, into your own consciousness, within, back and up, and see where you go, and what you connect to.

    • One simply connects to “All That Is”. And going within is precisely the path. Once one comes to this realization, all the doctrines, beliefs, questions, concerns, sins, judgments, even suffering tends to cease to complete insignificance. One simply IS in the now which is the only time there ever is.

    • One simply connects to “All That Is”.

      I had an aunt, my mother’s younger sister—now gone—who studied in depth all the major religions, and she said that Zen Buddhism was the most peaceful but she didn’t go with Buddhism after her years of study. She didn’t go with Christianity, Judaism or Islam either, and I can’t remember her choice.

  237. IDEA #1:
    Everyone is religious in some way or another and to some level or another. However, I think this was precisely the problem – we needed to differentiate OUR “religion” which was based on personal relationship from all the OTHER “religions” which were based on works – hence the language “Relationship” vs “Religion”.

    In addition, too many Christians were using the ends to justify their means (which,ironically, is characteristic of the other religions from which we were tring to distinguish ourselves from). So even though some may have had good intentions, much damage was made.

    This created a cultural shift in the Body of Christ, which I considered to be a positive move towards a better balance. However, in typical historic fashion I think the problem now is that we have gone way too far the other way.

    To what seems to be an increasing number of soft / consumer minded / spiritually anorexic Christians – even reading the bible feels like a burden – and since burden is a characteristic we usually associate with “religions” based on works, some have therefore concluded that a person who (for example) suggests that reading the bible is imperative is being “Religious”

    Don’t get me wrong, there are some who have genuinely been exposed to excessive demands – indeed, I have been on the receiving end of both extreams – but BOTH behaviors can often be traced to a set of common causes.

    IDEA #2:
    The following illustration was originally in relation to why we need biblical theology, but I think it would be a good illustration in greater context as well….

    Mary feeds her children an all meat diet, because she believes that meat is the best kind of food. One day she gains some important knowledge after reading a nutrition guide, and she starts buying a mixture of food types for her children. As a result her children become healthier. Did this mother love her children more before or after she gained the knowledge? The same! But until she gained the knowledge, her love was fruitless, even counterproductive. Knowledge that is true allows love to grow into good fruit

  238. “She didn’t go with Christianity, Judaism or Islam either, and I can’t remember her choice.”

    Lloyd, your aunt strikes me as a wise one. She certainly reflects such in not choosing one of the three Abrahamic religions. She’s absolutely correct that Buddhism is a very peaceful belief, I prefer Advaita which is very close but accepts God where Buddhism tends to not. However, the God accepted is the One, God being all and all God or put another way, only Consciousness existing.

  239. Lloyd, another BTW – No, I was not speaking of words spoken by Jesus and written down decades later by others with flawed memories – I was speaking of the very words that have been written down/said at any time by anyone (in our case – those attributed to Jesus). I don’t know who actually said them – all i care is that they were said and i find them absolutely true (tested by my personal experience). And, what’s more, I’m really glad they were said as they help many – wise words usually do to those with ears to hear. It’s a kind of confirmation to those who think for themselves. (Sometimes it works as a consolation to those who cannot yet think enough for themselves – like a loving adult to a child. Of course, children can be like the prodigal son – it takes time for all of us to understand The truth).

    • From what I’ve read, a lot of what JC preaches was preached by Buddha several hundred years before he did it and—unlike JC—Buddha wrote all of his words down.

    • Lloyd still catching up wth our messages -either wait a while for a reply, or, if you’re in the USA, time alone will do it for us (importnat words those!), as I’m in the UK and will soon be off to bed). But to try to catch up again. So, Buddha, Jesus and we can make a huge list of them, including you and me and all the rest here (no that’s not blasphemous and I’m sure you’ll understand -if not, another time eh). So, the point is that God uses ALL sorts of vehicles because God is Love and Love is found in all of us. When Jesus speaks of knowing him is t know God and come to god through him (Jesus), he is saying Love comes to know Love by using Love. There are many sources, some speak louder than others.

    • 1 in 200 men are direct descendants of Genghis Khan. That means they have some of Khan’s mitochondrial DNA. but God’s DNA runs through all of us so collectively, all humanity is God and that includes both the Old and the New Testament God.

      “The God of the Old Testament is a God of wrath while the God of the New Testament is a God of love.”

      We are all both.

    • Yes, Lloyd but eventually the New Testamnet God will supersede the old one and perfect peace will reign. remember ‘West Side Story’ -Somewhere, sometime – there’s a place for us- Go on, I dare you-seenthose beautiful, lovely words with me! Jesus speaks of the ‘fulfillment’.
      Any more and I’ll have to get back to as I’m off to sleep ……and dream of Paradise – mind you, i’m surrounded by parts of it! We can create our own little bit of paradise, here on earth.

  240. Buddhism taught bodhi or wakefulness, meaning seeing things as they are and knowing things for yourself. Applicable advice in this current time of internet thinking, when so many people can’t tell the difference between what they like, what they know and what they think, and think they know something just because they think it, feel it or like it, and heard someone else say it. We can’t blame people being that way though, with psychologists and counsellors crusading that feelings are good and thinking is bad.

    By the way, it is not known that the Buddha wrote his teachings down as Lloyd suggests. For centuries Buddhist teachings were past on orally, disseminating and varying widely. The major Indian/SriLankan text was not fixed until several centuries after Gautama sat under a tree teaching his insights. The Chinese and Tibetan texts were fixed much later, even as late as the medieval period. Of course, texts existed before then but they were thousands of pages and volumes around Asia and most were of unknown authors. Even now the Buddhist texts are incredibly vast and diverse. If scripture written close to the place and time of the original teacher is a guide to authenticity of teachings, then Christianity would be more reliable in that regard than Buddhism. I don’t think this holds true though. Whether those respective religion’s teachings were written or fixed decades or centuries after their initial introduction is not necessarily indicative of their content representing Truth. Truth has its own way of maintaining itself; it can be assisted by scripture but doesn’t need it.

    Neither does Buddhism teach what Jesus taught, although their teachings certainly intersect and are complimentary, but independent too. Among other things Buddhism taught a personal method of minimising suffering. And the concept of compassion, being the desire to help others, or consideration for others, which is not love but precedes love. Love is a power. Jesus taught the power of love to heal and to relieve suffering not just in self but in others.

    • Hi crossbow – Thanks for the explanation about the difference between compassion and love. Nice one! Why argue/debate about Love? Just be it. Who is going to prove the authenticity of one over the other at this moment in time. I don’t give a monkey’s uncle who said what or when. All I KNOW is that I want and try hard to do nothing but Love, and there have been wonderful people helping me. I take my hat of to them. I lean towards Christianity because Jesus was the first I heard about and i do not give up on old friends, but more importantly, because nothing he said has ever let me down, (I’ve personally proved it to my satisfaction), and he even knew he’d die in telling us. (Go on Lloyd and the others, tell me I don’t know that he knew that – well guess what – I have enough personal experience to believe he did and I’ll trust myself as you should)trust yourselves). The middle reason is my best reason (nothing in him has let me down),- and I a not the prodigal son. I ‘ve looked at most, if not all others(inc.Humanism), but for me Jesus is the best helper I’ve had (apart from my parents who gave me love to abide with). Why keep arguing -find your own truth and keep your mind open while you do (and somewhat after that). Bon voyage my friends.

    • crossbow, me ole’ mucker! 🙂 I do hope Lloyd doesn’t misinterpet my reply as competition. I think he has more brain than that – but just to confirm for him or anyone – No, not in the least, just speaking my Truth, quietly and clearly; (hopefully for some good. Love shared is Love expanding – Long live Love -it will!)

    • “Jesus is the best helper I’ve had”

      I think what you said would be more correct with these words: “The words attributed to Jesus Christ by others, who might be wrong in their interpretations of what Christ might have meant, are the best helper I’ve had.”

      If those interpretations that help you are wrong, then following what others claim Christ meant would be wrong.

      And yes, I just checked, and Buddha also wrote nothing down and others wrote what he allegedly said centuries later.

      So there we have it: The same thing happened with the Old Testament. It was written down based on more than 3,000 years of oral Hebrew history shared around camp fires—and that translation into print is subject to error along with how an oral myth grows and evolves over time.

      What Jesus Christ preached as a roving Jewish Rabi was first written down about 40 years after his death—and that recollection is also subject to error. I think that JC never intended a religion to be born using his name.

      I suggest that if the words that four men who have been dead for almost 2,000 years helps you, then give credit to what they wrote—not what Christ might have said and really meant.

      And even what those four men wrote is subject to error through many translations from the original language they were written in to Greek under Ptolemy, then eventually into other languages from Greek with the King James Bible in English.

      When a text is translated from one language to another, there are errors in translation.

      Studies of the King James Bible by Bible scholars have clearly revealed that even the placement of a comma—that did not exist in the original surviving Greek translations of the original Old and New Testaments—changed the contextual meaning of scripture sometimes dramatically.

      You might find this post at Legendary Times Books dot com interesting

      Was Jesus Influenced by Buddhism? A Comparative Study of Gautama and Jesus.

      Many years in the life of Jesus remain to this day unaccounted for. A number of books have come out that strongly assert that Jesus had spent time in India, both as a teacher and as a student, complete with supporting evidence.

    • Thanks for trying Lloyd but your correction of my words is wrong (out of order), because I’ve already explained that my belief is from my personal experience; the words attributed to Jesus have helped me more than anything; I am not concerned who said them. I refer to the ‘words attributed to Jesus’ because that’s where they are readily recognised (all the more so amongst Christians). I’m only concerned with their content and i am simply grateful to whoever said them. Are you getting it now? My thinking is well processed – thanks anyway.
      the rest of what you said,is, i think, directed at crossbow and is of no interest to me as I’ve already given my stance on all of that too.
      Do get back if you like.

    • Hi Lloyd, I hope you are still ‘with’ us – Do you remember that Jesus (or the representatives following after), said that we will do greater than he did? That’s because the world is getting closer to its climax – the coming together of us all, which incorporates male and female,along with bisexual and homosexual (who are both forerunners of what is to come), all the races, opinions and all the rest on earth. (I don’t know if Openobserver had taken this into account of his opinion of Christianity because he’s opted out, but I just thought to ask you, or, if you don’t feel impressed enough to reply, then merely to put it to you. With love, Dichasium

    • I’m not gone but I’m not going to be leaving comments in this thread anymore

      I’m overwhelmed with achieving my writing goals, and getting into these dead end debates with people who wouldn’t budge if God appeared as a burning bush in the middle of their living room without leaving a burn mark on the flooring and He told them to rethink what His message really was is an issue that ranks very low on my list of important things to accomplish.

      I made peace with God a long time ago and I have no desire to preach to someone else that they should think like me as they are attempting to do with others.

      I think there are already far too many missionaries floating about the world meddling in the affairs of other cultures and individuals as they attempt to influence those other people to think like them.

      I have need of being saved. I know who I am and what I think and unless God appears as a burning bush in my home and tells me in His best James Earl Jones voice that I have it all wrong, I’m not going to change.

    • Thanks again Lloyd but we are all the same. We all have our priorites in differnet places. We are open minded; are not trying to force others to see that we are right and they are wrong; will budge if and when the need becomes obvious. Those with a clean heart will always be willing to communicate and share with the like minded who they come across, even when their views differ and time is pressed (we just give a little less, as time dictates -clearly time offers you less in this place with us – we do understand you). This is the way we come together. But, each will follow his inclination and that will also produce good results. So, good on you Lloyd for hanging in there a little longer. We have been given the right to take our own routes and we must all appreciate that. I (and others here), appreciate you. Thank-you, till we all meet again as one. 🙂 With love,Dichasium.

    • P.S. for Lloyd – Having not personally been guilty of your charge, against those on this site (ie., not wanting to listen) , you could have given me the time by replying to my last comment (ie., the words which have been said by someone at sometime: ‘You will do greater things’). But you chose not to give me the time and said no-one here wants to hear your thougths (even though I clearly do). We (you and I),could hold a court over whether or not this is true, but to do that we’d BOTH want the truth to be out, (because the truth is the paramount priority), WHEREVER it is in question (such as now and here). I believe your grounds for not replying to me are questionable (as, I, for one, have indeed shown you that i do want to engage in two-way communication). UNLESS you change your mind based on the evidence before you (which would be denying the evidence I’ve given you about myself), I am forced to assume that you believe you know me better than i do, (that would be a dangerous thing to do). I wonder if my assumption is correct. Time will tell. I have invited you to follow me up because you came here by choice. Sorry if you still decline to give me your truth even though i want to hear it. I am listening to you – are you listening to me? Time will tell. Very best wishes, whilst living in hope, Dichasium. I will not post to you again, unless you return for the test we both have (and do owe one another because we both entered this ring here-but, your choice as ever, you can back out if you wish, no-one is forcing you).

    • Hey crossbow, I just thought, maybe you are an angel and can reach heights and depths I cannot reach, and that is why you can go lower than me and higher to see who I am, but I couldn’t recognise who you are? If so, I stand corrected Sir! (And, when will you put your pseudonym with a capital beginning, or, is there a hidden reason not to? And where’s your avataar? Are you hiding from us?).

    • I’m no angel, just a fella. And I can go pretty low alright.
      There’s no reason for not having a capital letter. When I was thinking of a name I saw my crossbow on the wall and decided to use it for a pseudonym.
      What do you mean, Where’s my avataar?

    • Totally WRONG.

      I know what is best for ME and everyone else can do their own thing as long as they don’t preach to me as if I”m wrong because I don’t think like them.

    • I’m almost 70. I’ve been preached to all my life and the preaching started with my mother when I was a child. She never stopped and she lived to 89. She been gone about 20 years now. My dad died about a decade before she left.

      I’m tired of someone else telling me that what they think is the only way to think—they may not say those exact words but through context of what they say it is obvious.

      When I reply with what I think is best for me, some people just spew the same old what’s best for them without acknowledging that I have a right to think what’s best for me and live my life accordingly.

      There is no give and take. I have discovered that for some people there is no acceptance for how others think when it doesn’t match their thinking.

      It is their way or it is wrong. If you want to love Christ and follow his words, that’s okay with me, but when I want to walk away from the discussion, let me go and leave me ALONE!

      When someone can’t let go, I think they are just another Troll.

      I have no problem what anyone else thinks is best for their life as long as that doesn’t include taking my life or robbing me of what I worked forty-five years of my life for or forcing me to live life the way they think everyone should live it.

      For instance, the infamous Koch brothers and the billions they are spending to manipulate and fool as many people as possible to convert the Untied States to the libertarian political principals they think is the only right way to run a country. It is obvious that these brothers have no respect for what anyone else thinks. They are world billions and can afford to live anyway they want. Most of us don’t have that privilege.

      I don’t want to beat my head against the brick wall of someone elses thinking. I have discovered that—for someone who knows who they are—it is a waste of time. I know who I am and I am comfortable in what I think about God, politics and life.

    • I hear you Lloyd. I was raised Mormon and leaving the church as a teenager earned me the rebuke and constant preaching from my entire family for a long time (to this day). But I think these feelings of yours, this reaction you have to others preaching, would be worth exploring for your own sake.

    • Lloyd, I saw your reply to crossbow after posting mine. It’s very interesting to me. No-one ever preached a single word to me from anywhere in my life – honestly, and I’ve finally come to choose Christianity purely of my own volition. I find this a very interesting contrast.

    • Aw diddums.
      Develop an internal locus of control.
      No one is forcing anything on you. You are just having a tantrum.
      Stop playing the victim. And grow up before you die.

    • Lloyd I respect you -always did, always will. So, unless you respond I will not write any more to you. Here then, for my au revoir –

      If I saw religion and churches as you and millions of others, I would keep WELL away. Fortunately, I always had the freedom to use my own mind to wrestle with ALL the nonsense that comes from such quarters (those who seek power over others- like you mother, by your account). I see them for what they are insecure people for numerous reasons. They actually think they will be happy when they have power over others!! – utterly the wrong source of power. As, I’ve told you before, thiinking for myself, throughout my life, made me finally understand what true love must be (I used many sources to help me). Finally (quietly within myself), I was able to remove all the arguments the whole world put before me against a loving God and the church (like you I know it is not just in one building!). Only then (and this was decades), could I attempt to ’employ’ this God. I put God to use in my life ONLY by attempting to trust. (Some people apparently have a sudden revelation). I had to make a little effort in this two-way process. So far, i’ve seen nothing but excellent results-by which i mean more than the usual. If I join forces with a church, it will be on my terms only -can you imagine that! I appreciate that any relationship needs give and take, but nothing on earth will take any of my belief away now that I know my own mind with surity. Unless you ever get to this position, I’d keep away from the lion’s den (metaphorically), but I’d have a secret room in my mind; (away from your mother’s effect on you and any of the many wolves in sheep’s clothing, who call themselves Christians or religious and fail to behave with love0; and keep it (my mind) open to as mny questions you choose to look at. That is the sensible thing to do towards everything in life – I imagine you already know this. Most people live with fear (and many to not see it in themselves). Perfect love casts out fear. It fears nothing. It has become free of all forms, gross and miniscule) of tyranny. Tyranny tries to kill it and sometimes succeeds. (But there is more in the universes than meets the eye).

    • Please correct me if I’m wrong (said sincerely), but did you not join this site by telling us why Christianity is flawed?
      I originally thanked you for putting the arguments against Christianity so succintly. I think you may have thought they were new to me – my fault. After that, I tried hard to explain how my belief is based on things OTHER than the arguments you mentioned (ie., my personal experience of life and spirit which has taken me decades to test and bring to fruition). I failed again. Indeed, how could I seriously expect you to understand or trust me, a total stranger! It has taken me decades to understand the words and their evidence. I can’t possibly expect you to understand me in half a dozen or so chats! i just experienced this with crossbow and we are, at least, like-minded on faith in the words attributed to Christianity.
      Conclusion: I, at least, will have learned something from our communication. Thank-you.

    • crossbow:
      You are of the we-know-what’s-best-for-you crowd.

      Lloyd Lofthouse: “Totally WRONG. I know what is best for ME and everyone else can do their own thing as long as they don’t preach to me as if I”m wrong because I don’t think like them.”

      crossbow:
      You mean everyone else can do their own thing as long as they don’t go to church and only worship in small groups.

      In amongst your diatribe against Christianity we read:

      Lloyd Lofthouse:
      “The key is to have a personal relationship with God—one on one—-and the removal of all religions.”

      crossbow:
      I agree with the first part of that statement. Anyone who wishes to develop a personal relationship with God should be permitted to do so, but I do not agree with the removal of all religions. That is just authoritarianism.

      Lloyd Lofthouse:
      “Nowhere does it (the bible) say a religion has to have Cathedrals and churches led by Popes and patriarchs.”

      “If there were no religions, just two or three people who gathered in his name once a week”

      “Instead of being a flock of sheep, individuals would have to learn how to think on their own.”

      “No one should enforce that. It should be voluntary…” (ha really? cb)

      “There is no easy way to get people to actually read the Bible and then join in small groups”

      crossbow:
      It can be done though; its been done before.

      The Soviet Socialists removed all religions and got people to worship in small groups of two or three in their own homes. They had to coerce them to do it though, by murdering tens of millions and intimidating all the rest. Murder and oppression is what the we-know-what’s-best-for-you crowd does best.

    • Ps. To All – I may as well add that my two other old favourites are The gospel of the Essenes and Desiderata.Hope you have enjoyed them too. Your choice, as ever. Love, as ever, Dichasium.

    • Re. Dichasium: “Thanks for the explanation about the difference between compassion and love. Nice one! Why argue/debate about Love? Just be it.”

      Contrast clarifies, and understanding is layered.

    • Hi crossbow, I woke saying when i eventually get onto the laptop I’ll ask you if you would understand my meaning if i said ‘The children do not yet understand’ – So do you know my less than subtle, but gentle meaning?
      Then, I saw your reply to some earlier words of mine re. contrast clarifies and understanding is layered and i thought to say in response, but interestingly, whilst they communicate with each other, there are those who currently appear to correctly interpret either to their proper sense. This (my thought on your reply), is interestingly, (for me), in much the same vein as my original comment. So, have you any thought/comment on both?
      I’ve only glanced at your other repliess (laughed at one) and will look intently at the other in due course. BTW some religious Christian friends are coming this afternnon to study the OT. I would love it if they were able to incorporate your way of comparison, but i think yours is quite rare. Can you come to live in Wales for a long time please!!!!!!!Must dash for time being..

    • Oh for goodness’ sake, I’m sorry, i really must read my replies before posting, even thoguh i’m often in a hurry these days! I meant ‘there are those who currently appear NOT to correctly interpret…………And, This (my thought on your reply), is interestingly, (for me),AS IT APPEARS TO BE VERY SIMILAR in much the same vein as my original comment.
      Hope you’ll be able to follow me now!

    • Thoughts, yes; comment, no. Other than to say that in a sense we are all children at various stages of maturity, whether conscious of it or not. (Between you and me though, some people skip maturity and go straight from immaturity to senility.)

      The Old Testament is certainly a wonderful. I take an over all view first, a wide angled one, start at the big picture then work in to the detail. That is the best way to study anything; get an overall perspective, then look at the detail. And also the way to make something; like carving a statue or baking and decorating a cake. So too with the OT and the books that comprise it. To start off with details can bog one down and cause a narrow view. We see this amongst those who pick a chapter here and a verse there and get stuck on the seeming picture drawn by those selective dot points. Yet they lack a wide and deep understanding of the overall testament. But if we back away, like we back away from a painting, scanning lightly over the details, not taking them too seriously, and letting the overall picture come to light, then we have an accurate overview. From there we can zero in here and there and pay more attention to particular details without blowing them out of proportion. For the greater picture provides details with such things as context, relevance, proportion and significance, otherwise the details easily get misconstrued or taken out of accurate proportion to the greater picture. Remember the correlation/contradiction rule in a comment somewhere above? Its part of the same concept. May I say hello to your friends? “Hello friends of Karen. Greeting from Crossbow, all the way from Australia.”

      Ahh, Wales, so beautiful. I would like to visit one day.

    • Joy oh joy crossbow – we have beautiful connection – your first response re children, i had expected because I alrady know it and thought you would, which means it would probably provoke it from you -it did – wonderful and thanks!
      The second one aabout the OT likewse but i could not foresee; now i’ve finished my connection with them (which likewise worked both ways because it was a true and joyous sharing), was another example of our minds working together. I know how i like to learn, my friend didn’t but offered me the option; I immediately chose the one i need (and the one you have spoken of which i have just received!So, thanks -message recieved-we are of one mind as all are,but, we are closer than perhaps either of us fully appreciated. I knew we were working closely together, you with your way and me with mine, but this adds confirmation. Goody! And you would be more than welcome here at our little place in Wales – just to try to tempt you(!), we have a piece of heaven here-we chose it so we could elaborate on the 3 plain sheep grazing fields into a little place of much harmony with wildlife and beauty – all God’s of course. My husband’s vision which I’ve helped him with. He isn’t yet aware that it is God’s (in the Christian sense) . Wildlife is his church (I think he is a little version of St.Francis) and he has helped (unbeknowingly, though i keep impressing it upon him), with my vision. We ALL get there in the end and, when we do, I’ll look forward to meeting you – If not before – Wales isn’t too far!

    • Christianity has many variations, and that is a good thing, for people are different. There are many mansions.

      Thank you for the invitation to visit, Dichasium. We are on opposite sides of the planet, but even so, in some respects it is not very far. I might drop by, but wont intrude.

    • crossbow, that’s good to hear. I do hope you can stay a while sometime as I do not believe you will ever be an intrusion. Our greatest joy, here on earth, is to share the good. What a shame others do not yet appreciate that fact in full, but, of course, all in good time.

    • Ps.crossbow – two more comments for the time being! As i was only able to read your last mail after my friends visit I will give them your greeting shortly. 2nd -you appeared a little alarmed when you discovered that 2 of us has interpreted you (for different reasons), as a female – well, i must say, the more who do -the better, because if you can incorporate both sides you will be closer to God. That’s why, as a female ‘tom-boy’, i wish to advance my feminine side as well as my masculine, so i learn from both, all the time, but remaining, in this life, a female with the qualities of one; but hopefully coming closer to God. (Between you and me – my ‘professional’ aim in life has, for a long time, been to become an angel! Hope to get there one day and see you my friend! (For those who may misunderstand – My head’s not swelling, just facing the right way!).

    • My friend called me a fairy and bought me a little model of one a long time ago. Perhaps i haven’t progressed! Are fairies lower or higher in the great scheme of things? Whatever, I’m going to dare, as one trying to be human to another human (what exactly are you?!), to say – do not behave like children engaging with Lloyd on the name calling level – it is not fitting for us humans/? – we are all God’s, albeit not at/with the Actual Source yet! I’m sure your big heart can take that from a fairy crossbow 🙂 Love you.

    • It is important that everyone be permitted to speak their mind, on all things, in whatever words they may use, and be free to pursue their own interests and passions, and of course, be free to worship in their own way, whether at home or in churches, or elsewhere. Freedom, as long as an individual does not harm others or restrict the freedom of others. Freewill and its potential to learn and grow is what being human is all about. Take freewill away from people, and they don’t learn and they don’t grow.

    • Hi Crossbow, i used the smiley face in hope you’d see how the comment has been offered, but i clearly failed. Sorry, i evidently misled you – you see i wouldn’t dream of restricting anyone’s freedom, i entirely understand the need for it. I said it on the basis of treating others how you’d wish to be treated (ie respect for others). I would want anyone to tell me if they thought my words were not very helpful. (As it is, Lloyd’s reply shows that it has only produced a circle of each accusing the other). Hope this helps you to understand that it was not said from ignorance of the absolute necessity for freedom – i offer my opinion for anyone to do with it as they please -always.

      Regarding your avatar – on my web page it is showing as a blank black box (and I don’t remember it being like this before the last few days).

    • hi my lovely – no need for occasional reminders – i KNOW you are here, like me, like Eric, and everyone – trying to reflect the light as we see it.
      I am sensitive, but, ONLY to that light and to reflect that light. I listen and question all. That, for me, is the basis of civilised behaviour (even when some feel the mistaken need (usually due to some past unfortunate conditioning), to become offensive to the good principles we have on offer to us). If people persevere with me, good results follow and confusion disappears – this is success, as far as I’m concerned (even if we leave with different opinions). There has usually been left a seed for either or both. The short sharp method frequently incites bad results. I wish to avoid that and you are most freely enttled to see if differently, but, I assure you, it is not that i need to understand freedom, or that I am too sensitive for my own good. I merely, for the sake of peace, wish to discuss things politely. (you might say – like a fairy!). But, anyone, be warned, I can punch when it is the LAST resort, to help both parties. (Actually, that apparently is what God intends to do – we’ll see -whatever, it will be right, and love, and perfect).

    • crossbow, i must stop using up your precious time but no, I’m surely a dove, or going to be one. I just played the choirboys’ ‘Oh for the wings, for the wings of a dove’ and it was painfully sweet for me. Tell me what you are sometime, and perhaps put it as your avatar?

  241. Lloyd Lofthouse says:
    May 23, 2015 at 4:46 pm
    “…Christianity and Islam are just more of the False Prophets the Bible warns about.”

    So who are the true profits, and what do they teach?

    • Lloyd our friend, I haven’t got time to check who said this wrong bit (I think i can guess though), “…Christianity and Islam are just more of the False Prophets the Bible warns about.”, but your reply was good. Thanks for that bit fo good, ‘Every little bit helps’.
      I just wanted to add the most important bit to you taht i forgot in my reply (there’s often a hidden good reason why this happens!). It is this, i looked at SO many other forms of truth before i totally accepted Jesus, and yet, I am still learning all the time and will do so till my work here is done and i die. The reason i have settled at this moment with Jesus is that whilst all the others contain truth, i found that Jesus (yes those attributed to him which could be wrong, but I’ve found them trhough my personal testing and ‘open observing’ to be true), contain even more truth than the rest. But, as i’ve just siai to Open(?)observer (who has said for the 3rd time (when the cock crows comes to mind),that he is now definitely closed -how sad),-when we find out how to use each thing in its full manner we unlock treasures we had no idea were there. so, dear Lloyd (who did not close the door), keep trusting yourself and you will find that ALL things work for the good of God (Love/Truth/IT, even the whole bible and Christians and you and Openobserver -EVERYTHING on earth (and beyond)). Heven’t checked this as in terrific hurry to get all the work done today, so PLEASE get back if you’ve a mind to. ever willing, your friend, Dichasium.

  242. Lloyd, regarding your comment ‘ Perhaps Lloyd Lofthouse thinks that Christianity and Islam are just more of the False Prophets the Bible warns about.’ ‘Perhaps’ doesn’t tell me if you do, but, just want to say in case you do – it’s only what we do with things that can make them bad. But ALL things do actually work for the good of Love, it’s just that we will try to bend the rules! Eventually, (not necessarily in the life we see now), each of us will get it straight, as straight (Truth), has the upper hand. And BTW, even it it didn’t (and, of course, I don’t believe that, but it matters not a jot), that’s the way I’m heading regardless of ALL else. I am firm.Know thyself!

  243. “The God of the Old Testament is a God of wrath while the God of the New Testament is a God of love.” “We are all both.”

    “WE” may be both but God is not convoluted. We have so humanized God it is ridiculous, making Him into an emotional basket case, happy when someone is saved and frustrated when not, etc. The God of the OT and NT reflect contradiction and consequently untruth. It reflects human authorship not divine. The apologist find a way to make it work but they cannot erase the underlying contradiction.

    With that my friends, I leave you. (this time I mean it 🙂 )

    I’m spiritual, not religious!!

    Sorry Eric for the intrusion.

    • Keep observing, Larry, and studying your own consciousness.
      Who knows what you might find in there.
      I have heard it said that, what lies within is greater than what lies without.
      But I’m a Christian, so what would I know about such things?

    • Openobserver, i know you may be observing from the closet but I’ll see if you hear this (for the good of all). ‘Manners maketh man’ and one of those manners is that you shoul always give others the right to reply when you make a statement longer than ‘i do not accept that’. The reason why is that we must rreat others how we want to be treated, otherwise we are not allowing justice on earth. So, when you give others a piece of your mind you MUST (if you truly know IT), allow them the right to respond, until you only say ‘i do not accept that’.
      On the basis of this principle from IT, i am going to say this hoping that you are listening from the closet: All things work for the good of IT. All things on eatht have been provided by IT. All things IT has provided (such as the bible), will work good (like all ITs tools on earth), IF and when used properly. WHEN you use the bible properly you will find there is not the contradiction you currently find (and some Christians already know this). However, IT has provided ‘a time and a place for ALL things’, and we all use the different things It has provided, at different times It has provided, in the different places It has provided. So you, like all of us (IT), WILL use things at different times. They are all good when properly seen and we (IT), will all come to know It perfectly in Its due course. Hence, the moral of this story is that It (you) will not (when It is properly formed as a whole), never assume that IT) knows more than others. So, Open(?)observer, remember that we (IT) all know IT and we should ALWAYS be open observers. It (we) ALL know IT, so leet’s use It to the fullest we can while we have IT on earth to use.
      And, BTW the huge change It is going to bring about soon is going to be soon because we are all getting the hang of IT and the climax is nearly due. But, IT will not harm one of us (IT) because It is nothing but Love. The bible is part of IT and so are Christians, as you are and ALL the rest of us (IT). Please do come out of the closest and be friends again with us all. While we work for IT together, we speed up It’s good work. (I’m sending this without check as I’ve too much to get done today). Get back if you’ve a mind. Ever willing.Dichasium.

    • In brief then (particularly for you Openobserver), IT is perfect. IT sees The Truth in everything. Because we are It (at the very least while on earth – PART of IT), we all MUST learn to do likewise. And the reason – as mathematics has already discovered – ‘The WHOLE is GREATER than the sum of the PARTS’. We are indeed only parts (as yet), and we must become GEATER – the whole – IT. Bless you Openobserver (And Ps. don’t stay in your closet too long). Love you always (whether you want it or not!) 🙂 ).

  244. Re: “The God of the Old Testament is a God of wrath”

    That statement is correct only on a superficial level and from a biased aspect.

    First and most underlying, the God of the old testament is a God of Oneness; all inclusive, all pervasive, ever extensive, pure potential, from which all comes forth and by which all exists. After that first presentation, the God of the old testament is a God of the law of right and wrong.

    The God of the orient, the Tao, is also a God of all inclusive, all pervasive, ever extensive Oneness and potential from which all comes forth and exists. But the God of the orient differs from the God of the Jews in that after sharing the same first and most underlying presentation of all inclusive, all pervasive, ever extensive Oneness and potential, the Toa is a God of the law of harmony and disharmony.

    Both Gods share the same underlying first presentation but a slightly different second presentation. And that seemingly slight difference between an omnipotent God of right and wrong, and an omnipotent God of harmony and disharmony, makes significant subsequent differences to all aspects of human life and development under the respective influence of each God.

  245. Hi there crossbow – just a quickie (if that’s possible for me!). i’ve still not read your last post but will as i want to adopt some of your lovely ways. But, just wanted to say that if you’ve read any of my latest posts to others, you’ll see why my way is the long-winded way – i want to incorporate many things which apply to those i’m talking with and there’s a reason for that which i won’t go into here. your way has its time and place and so, of course does mine. We will keeping working together in our own ways (here or elsewhere on earth) because ALL things work for the good of God and there is ‘a time and a place for everything’. That’s why i want to adopt some of your ways too. god bless you, (and Eric and all the rest), yet again!) Love for now, as ever, Dichasium. Must dash – like all of us, there’s work to be done everywhere 🙂

  246. Eric my friend (no Eric I’m not your mother again!), I think I may have found a way to state my belief for you & many others.

    Construct peace with the force of love:

    It is not good will for some to have much and others little or none at all. It is never a question of them and us. It is never a question of which church, spiritual or religious, which this or that –There is only one – IT is Love. Clothe yourself with IT, protect yourself with it, be with it wherever you are and give it to whoever you are with. That alone is sharing; that alone is Love.
    That is my message to one and all, which includes recognition that many already know IT, in which case, it is a sharing.

    In effect, I’m saying the man made church building and heritage, religions. Christianity, Jesus, and all individual things on earth are places originally designed for love, but, like charity, it begins at home but does not have to stay there. So, let’s stop the squabbles and simply share the love. There is a multitude of ways to do it, but let’s never, anywhere, restrict it to anything separate – Love/God/Spirit/It does definitely not want that! Argue/debate if you will to. But please, try to remain polite throughout, else you will show ignorance of one of the gentle ways of Love.

    • Diachasium, haha, I like the comment about not being my mother. In response, which I will say once and leave it there since this discussion has reached epic proportions, I absolutely believe that “sharing the love” is what it is all about. What I’m not on board with is the idea that sharing the love requires abandoning the Church – the garden from which the love is grown and sent out. For a Christian the Church – the community of the saints knit together in the body of Christ – is a requirement for authentic, God empowered (not merely man powered) love, love which effectuates the union of man with each other and with God.

      Thanks again for the discussion and this last post. Cheers.

    • Eric or others, not sure if Eric’s ‘last post’ means everyones, hope not as i wish to clarify – no intention in my words about abandoning the church – not at all! Merely saying we must never think one is better than the other. We certainly can join forces where we see fit, but Love alone will determine everything else. What we must not do is anything divisive. ALL works for the good of Love. Love knows what’s best. We do not. Hope that clarifies, because, like it or not, we are all at-one, even with our mothers! 😉 Love to all, wherever you fit most comfortably – Dichasium.

  247. Pingback: Seek and Ye Shall Find | Bridget Owens

  248. I wasn’t going to comment, just read your thoughts but you said you often wonder if people stopped to wonder what they actually mean by it! I also find your words kind of annoying and it makes me mad! I say I’m spiritual and this is what it means to me and why! I believe in Christ and I have read the bible and studied it, however, it is difficult to take all of it as coming from the Lord! Esp. since one can do their own research and find that the head and first church “Catholic” has removed, dissected and changed the unchangeable words of God! The bible states this yet the first church, committed these very acts? The same church, denomination, religion, has committed despicable, contemptible, loathsome, abominable, hypocritical acts on a huge scale! Not just hundreds or more many years ago, but up until the present! if you read the bible yourself and you study it, you also become enlightened that when translated to other languages the words don’t always mean the same things or either languages might not even have a word for the meaning! That leaves imperfect man (people) to fill in and use their own judgement! These aren’t lies, this is fact that I am saying! Esp. since the words for Hebrew can have a few different meanings! Like when God says he made the world in six days, in Hebrew, the word “day” (which is “yom”) can mean: a 24-hour day, daytime, today, forever, continually, or an undetermined amount of time. The bible clearly and abundantly says the act of homosexuality is an abomination but the Christian faith allows loopholes? What? I get the love the sinner not the sin but still the Lords word makes it clear that hypocrisy and saying things but not acting accordingly is a sin! I can have a better more meaningful relationship with the Lord when I am talking about, reading, studying or enjoying the gospel with even only one other person! Why because God says where two or three gather in my name, there I am! Spiritual does not mean to all spiritualism and I think you are wrong to say people who are spiritual are making up there own religion! Isn’t that exactly what Jesus’ disciples did esp. when the words he spoke to Peter were to build the rock on Jesus’ himself and in the belief of him not the catholic church! Gods day of rest was sanctified and holy yet the Christian faith moved it from Saturday to Sunday? Really, you think the Hebrew God is cool with that, I mean it’s just one day right. I think most Christians just give attributes and characteristics of a loving, kind and forgiving God and they fail to listen, believe and remember that he is also a jealous, wrathful, vengeful! You might want to read your bible again and take some time to really understand and use common sense a little as well! Some people just don’t like the way the Christian faith follows more of their own script then that of the unchangeable words of God! If his words and rules don’t and cannot be changed then stop making loopholes and loving self indulgence, Greed and a separate path that is the Trinity! PERIOD!

    • Dear Chrissy, thank you for your concern about my biblical and historical literacy. It feels good to know there are people like you looking out for me. Therefore I’m going to ignore your epic misunderstanding of this blog article and just skip to a question. Help me understand, I’ve read the bible several times, I can read Hebrew and Greek, I’ve studied church history for 20 years and have a masters degree in it, I’m a devout practicing Orthodox Christian but I’m grateful to have you to tell me where the historic church got it wrong and injected man-made stuff into scripture. Knowing that you got it right and haven’t injected any of your own interpretation into the text, please give me an example or two of where the Orthodox Church changed scripture and corrupted the faith?

      Thank you so much. Can’t wait for your reply.

  249. This article and the comments do more to further my resolve to be deeply spiritual on a personal level, but no need or desire to be religiously affiliated. And, to me anyhow, that statement has no judgement on religion. Religion exists because there is a need for it, otherwise this article and it’s comments would never come to light. Who am I to deny anyone of their individual needs. At the same time, this feels like a judgement on those who are not religious but still feel a deep spiritual connection to something bigger than themselves, with no need to define it. You say, “Anyone who embarks on anything spiritual will either receive the religious tradition from which it comes, or create their own religious tradition in the attempt to understand and practice it.“ I am not able to resolve this. I have set quietly on the shore of Hidden Lake in Glacier National Park in Montana, in the heart of the cathedral that is the surrounding mountain peaks, where I had to date the most profound feeling of spiritual connection. From what religious tradition did that come?

  250. That is awe, the sense of one’s own smallness in comparison to something that is far greater than oneself. It is not necessarily to do with spirituality. Anyone can be awed. There is also wonder, which is the heart’s equivalent to what curiosity is in the mind, the open minded desire to know, making wonder a mild opening of the heart, though not necessarily the heart’s receiving of anything, as with thankfulness, that is the heart’s taking something in to its own repository. There is also amazement, which is the effect of great and bewildering things upon the mind. All these things are different. We must learn to differential to fine degrees or we end up confusing one thing for another and making errors and miss-assuming even ourself.

  251. sorry bro…but if you don’t get the deep meaning of the phrase or what it could mean then I seriously question your spirituality. see Mathew 7 21-23 when Jesus says ” I never knew you; depart from me”. You see you can be religious as all get out. You can religiously go to church, religiously say the same prayer every day and just be gung-ho religious and still not know Jesus. To me to be spiritual is to really know God. To have a personal connection, something deep inside you just cant explain. The feeling of he holy spirit living inside you. That is spiritual, and that is to know god intimately. Id rather be spiritual and know God then just be religious. Nothing wrong with being both I don’t think but at the end of the day do you know God? Just my opinion.

    • Question away my friend. According to your understanding of the word religious, such judgment sounds quite religious. If your spirituality has no boundaries set in order to practice it with your actual, real life (not the ephemeral one in your imagination) then I question such spirituality – its certainly not a spirituality having anything to do with Christ. Christ was quite the “boundary” setter, which cannot be understood in any proper way outside of seeing it as a religion.

  252. The preceding verses put Matthew 7:21-23 in context. He is talking about those whose fruits are no good. Fruits being their results for others, what comes from them for others, or manifests from them for others sake, and how they effect upon others. What we give forth for others and how it effects them is our fruit. They might claim to be Christian but if their effect or results upon others is no good then they are not really Christian, Our effect upon those around us and what we manifest in the world for other’s sake is important.

  253. I’m not a Christian. I’m an agnostic Buddhist. Can I claim the statement “I’m not religious; I’m spiritual” or do you have an issue with that statement too?

    • I like the Urban dictionary’s definition of Spiritual but not religious:

      A person who is not into any particular traditional church denomination. They may gather different ideas from religions and craft their own theology that explains their life experiences or they may follow more of a mystical approach (meditation, yoga, earth medicine) to find their truth. They may feel a connection in nature (or guitar playing, or eating yogurt or having sex) that transcends the ego. They usually reject anything that comes across as dogma, (i.e. you must believe this to get into my group) and usually have a broad definition of what they consider “the Divine” to be.

  254. Spirituality is the melody that harmonizes my soul. The practice of mindfulness and gratitude has created a symphony of peace within. Thankful for the transformative power of spiritual exploration.

  255. Appreciating the opportunity to engage in conversations that elevate our understanding of spirituality. Your platform fosters an environment of openness and acceptance, allowing us to embrace our unique paths with gratitude and humility.

  256. The concept of spiritual warfare through Christian unity is a reminder that we are not alone in our battles, but have the support and strength of fellow believers.

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